Buckle up, intrepid listeners! Dr. John kicks off the latest episode of the Evolved Caveman Podcast with a bang, bringing on the illustrious Daniel Ellenberg, Ph.D. This dude isn’t just any therapist; he’s a leadership coach, founder of Strength with Heart and past president of the APA’s division on Men and Masculinities. Oh, and did I mention he co-developed training for NASA? Yeah, the guy’s got creds. John and Daniel dive into the intricacies of male relationships, the importance of play, and why guys need to stop being such jackasses about vulnerability and self-compassion. They riff on everything from the significance of boundaries to the irony of male loneliness, all while making sure to keep things breezy and sarcastic. Ever wonder why men are so scared of the word ‘compassion’? You’re about to find out. Daniel’s current passion project: helping men balance strength with heart through the Men and Boys Compassion Coalition. A must-listen for anyone trying to upgrade their male operating system without losing their edge.
Here is the link to the podcast on Podomatic: Strength With Heart – A Man’s Guide To A Happier, More Connected Life
To watch the video, see below:
Strength With Heart: A Man’s Guide To A Happier, More Connected Life – Transcript
Dr. John Schinnerer, Men’s Therapist & Dr. Daniel Ellenberg, Psychologist, Author, Leader of Men
Dr. John Schinnerer: [00:00:00] Hello Intrepid listener. This is Dr. John back with the latest episode of the Evolve Caveman Podcast and I am thrilled and honored to have with me today Daniel Ellenberg. And Daniel is a man whom I respect greatly. I met him at a, I a high level networking event of people doing men’s work.
And lemme give you his brief bio here ‘cause he’s had a hell of a career, Daniel is a licensed therapist, leadership coach, and the founder of Strength with Heart Men’s groups and workshops. He is past president of American Psychological Association, division on Men and Masculinities, and the founder, director of the Men and Boys Compassion Coalition through the Global Compassion Coalition. He’s currently co-writing a book for men called Strength with Heart. And contributed a chapter in global dialogue on masculinity. He has spent his entire career helping people, particularly men, [00:01:00] navigate their lives more mindfully, skillfully and compassionately. He co-developed and delivered training at several NASA space centers, including resilience dynamics, introspection for leadership excellence, and the neuroscience of teams.
And I’ve seen other bios of his and we’re leaving out a number of impressive things. So that’s a pretty damn good body of work right there. Daniel, welcome. How are you?
Daniel Ellenberg, Ph.D.: I am well. Good to be with you, John.
Dr. John Schinnerer: So I gotta say, I was excited to have you on because in our last conversation I found that you could play with me and I’m, I really appreciate that.
And another man, I’m a big fan of being quick and easy to laugh and smile, right? And I was like, oh shit, this guy can joke around and can play and, is a smart ass and is sarcastic and I love that.
Daniel Ellenberg, Ph.D.: I left Jersey a long time ago, and as I say, you can take the boy outta jersey, but and so it, it survival back then.[00:02:00]
I do think play is so important and I don’t think in general psychology gives play enough play. Yeah. And when you think. Male relationships, they are oftentimes predicated on some type of play. Now some people look at it from the outside and they go, oh, these guys are just being competitive and it’s just veiled hostility and all that.
Daniel Ellenberg, Ph.D.: And maybe there is some in the complexity of life, but it’s also a way of connecting. And guys will poke each other and prod and think can I be me and be a jerk in a certain way with you? And will you still embrace me? Yeah, on some some level. And obviously you don’t wanna go too far.
Daniel Ellenberg, Ph.D.: And I think where guys fall short a lot is that when someone gets hurt with like they, which happens, the other person doesn’t necessarily apologize and don’t have a meaningful conversation. And [00:03:00] I’m a believer in both poking and prodding and also course correcting if you’ve gone off course and, the relationship is, harmed by the.
Daniel Ellenberg, Ph.D.: The play that turns into something that feels threatening,
Dr. John Schinnerer, Therapist for Men: Yeah. So repair is a big one. I’ve, worked pretty extensively on repairing disconnection in my romantic relationship, but I think you’re right. I don’t see, I don’t think we see that carry over into male friendships quite as much.
Dr. John Schinnerer: Although now that I’m older it’s, a little bit better and easier. Absolutely.
Daniel Ellenberg, Ph.D.: You think about being a therapist how many people go with a, friend into therapy? Like you, you have individual counseling you have couples counseling, you have family counseling, you have some group counseling where there could be some friendships that develop in there.
Daniel Ellenberg, Ph.D.: But guys coming in together. And talking about, Hey we wear clothes. We’re not feeling as close, we’re disconnected. We want [00:04:00] to, we wanna explore what’s going on here. That’s super rare. I’ve done it as, a therapist. But I’m a strong believer in the potential resilience of relationships.
Daniel Ellenberg, Ph.D.: I’m not a strong believer that people will always be resilient in their relationships. The potential is there. The actuarial not always.
Dr. John Schinnerer: I think in 30 years of doing therapy, I’ve seen it once where two, and then there were young men, there were like early twenties that came in and wanted to talk about their friendship, and I was really impressed.
Dr. John Schinnerer: Exactly.
Daniel Ellenberg, Ph.D.: And isn’t that interesting that you were
Dr. John Schinnerer: impressed by it, Uhhuh? It was. It’s so rare, right? Yeah. And I think we need more of that. We know that there’s a dearth of friendships for men in general. In this day and age the epidemic of loneliness and, I think it, it’s fascinating to me because one of the things I’ve talked about with clients over the [00:05:00] years is how difficult it is to make new friends after, I dunno, say the age of 25.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Therapist for Men: Whenever you get outta school, whenever you get outta college or graduate school, it just becomes quite a bit harder to meet new people.
Daniel Ellenberg, Ph.D.: It is interesting ’cause I’ve, this is an area I’ve explored a lot, like male friendships and I personally have friendships ranging from over 40 years to a year and so I, I’ve made friends throughout life.
Daniel Ellenberg, Ph.D.: A lot of times if you really wanna make friends when you’re getting older, it really is around doing projects together. And, so I know for me, like my newer friendships have come because we were sharing some alignment in terms of what we’re doing. And that may be the case with us,
Dr. John Schinnerer: John. Yeah, I felt it’s interesting just in touching on that, I felt a strong [00:06:00] connection with you, like almost immediately.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Counselor for Men: And it, I, it was partly based on what you were saying and I had, there was some agreement in the ideas that you were espousing, there was respect on what you had done in the past. And then on top of that I found, oh, this guy can play with me at some level. Wow, this is really cool. You better stop it.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Relationship Coach for Men: People may get the wrong idea. What do you say? This guy is not serious at all.
Daniel Ellenberg, Ph.D.: It’s funny ’cause I I. I’ve given up most of my therapy practice and I’ve done, I mainly do some leadership coaching, but most of what I’m doing these days is more nonprofit work around men and boys Compassion Coalition. But I know that for me, I. If you really want to get a lot of, good stuff done, it’s also good to have a playful attitude about it.
Daniel Ellenberg, Ph.D.: And so I never want to be like, okay, let’s start, we got, we have this stuff to [00:07:00] do. We have all these transactional things, let’s get them done. Bu bubu, bu we gotta have some sense of ease and relationship and there has to be some kind of give and take and we’re connecting, right? And, so people.
Daniel Ellenberg, Ph.D.: Just through, doing shit, you gotta have to find
Dr. John Schinnerer, Best Therapist for Men: a way to be with people. And to me it’s about how do we create conditions that cultivate positive emotions, to allow us to relax into the situation and ideally enjoy what we’re doing. But at minimum open us up to new ways of thinking, new ways of being creative.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Life Coach for Men: I remember I was working with, a top executive at a Fortune 50 company, and they were leading some meetings and the, atmosphere was just rife with stress and, outright fear, I would say, because there had been several rounds of layoffs. And I said have you tried anything to lighten the emotional mood prior to starting some of these meetings?
Dr. John Schinnerer, Therapy for Men: And she was like, no, what do you mean? And I was like I remember doing some work with a Stanford psychiatrist. We were [00:08:00] trying to measure emotions, but we had a hard time like making sure people were in the same emotional place to begin the assessment. And I suggested just showing a brief clip of a baby laughing, like there’s a classic, like someone, the dad’s tearing pieces of paper, which the baby just thinks is hilarious and it’s just like belly laughing.
Dr. John Schinnerer: And so she, to her credit, she had the courage to do that. And everyone started laughing in the meeting at this baby laughing at ripping paper because it’s infectious. It’s hard not to. And everyone relaxed in the meeting and several people came up to her afterwards and thanked her for including that, and I just thought it’s such an easy intervention, so to speak.
Daniel Ellenberg, Ph.D.: I hope she gave you credit for that,
Dr. John Schinnerer: right? I don’t know about that, but
Daniel Ellenberg, Ph.D.: If, you think it better kinda psychophysiological the first order of business, so to speak between people is like safety versus threat. Friend or foe.
Daniel Ellenberg, Ph.D.: And that’s what play is, a way of [00:09:00] actually entering the space of safety.
Daniel Ellenberg, Ph.D.: Now, one of the problems that happens between guys not irregularly, is that it starts off as play. And again, as I saying before, someone feels that they were hit by a stick and then they feel threatened and then they threaten back, and then you’re up. You’re upleveling into a conflict there.
Daniel Ellenberg, Ph.D.: And so quickly from safety to threat, this happens with people quite a bit and, safety is never anything to be assumed. And we’re obviously living in a world that, at least to some degree feels increasingly unsafe. Increasingly threatening. And without going all political right now.
Daniel Ellenberg, Ph.D.: I do think that people do best when they think most about how can I contribute to feelings of safety between us and how can I feel safer in myself? I. And so when we think about certain practices [00:10:00] meditation, visualization, you know that even some exercise that it’s, it is developing a sense of safety within the confines of your own being.
Daniel Ellenberg, Ph.D.: Because if you feel safe within yourself, it’s harder to be destabilized by somebody else feeling unsafe, and to the degree that you can feel safe and you generate. That vibe, so to speak, with other people. They’re reading you also, and if they don’t feel threat energy coming from you, they feel safety in your presence.
Daniel Ellenberg, Ph.D.: They are gonna let down their guard more and you’ll have, a better connection.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Men’s Relationship Coach: Yeah. And, one of the easiest ways to do that is to smile more. It indicates that you’re not a threat. But it also makes me think while you were talking of the. The deep and profound impact of things like trauma on us where you know, trauma, [00:11:00] whether repeated little T trauma or Big T trauma puts us in that state of hypervigilance where we’re always looking for threat or we’re stuck in that fight flight freeze mode, which.
Dr. John Schinnerer: Necessarily is gonna cause you to view others more readily as a threat. Yeah. And so I think part of it is to have the self-awareness of how much of this is me internally and my baggage and stuff that I need to deal with my work, and how much of this is actually coming from another person or this, the outside world.
Daniel Ellenberg, Ph.D.: It it is always a big question. It was the fir the first question I asked my, first therapist when I was 20 years old, which was more than a few years ago.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Best Counselor for Men: You can remember that far back. Holy shit. I think I should, I can barely remember yesterday,
Daniel Ellenberg, Ph.D.: but it doesn’t mean I’m accurate, but I am confident.
Daniel Ellenberg, Ph.D.: They say confidence is no guarantee for competence. Or correctness. [00:12:00] But now that you’ve interrupted my flow, what was it? I am
Dr. John Schinnerer: so sorry. I am very sorry. I definitely apologize.
Daniel Ellenberg, Ph.D.: You should be, but I, was, okay, I’ll stop. So for a while. So I, said to him, part of why I’m here is I want to discover where I end and other people begin.
Daniel Ellenberg, Ph.D.: And that’s a work of a lifetime because Yeah, there to some degree there is no. Clear boundary between self and other. It’s it’s not like we live in these insulated little packages on this planet and we are completely hermetically sealed from being impacted by anything or everyone else.
Daniel Ellenberg, Ph.D.: It’s not like that in life. We breathe the same air, we walk the same streets we, fly the same skies and obviously the better that we can be in ourselves. It’s easier to be with others and obviously there’s many different types of [00:13:00] people. There are some crazy ass people on this planet.
Daniel Ellenberg, Ph.D.: Needless to say and there are some super sane people and finding your people is obviously important, but also learning to navigate the complexities of life is hugely important. No question about that.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Counseling for Men: It makes me think of Prentice Hemphill’s quote about boundaries and boundaries, and I’ll paraphrase ’cause I can’t, my memory’s not that good.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Men’s Therapist: But boundaries are the place where we can love ourselves and others at the same time. Huh, that’s interesting. I’ve never heard that quote. And so when you said I’m trying to find out where the other begins and I end, or that space. ’cause I think it’s a really important question in terms of how do we maneuver through these relationships, which.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Men’s Therapist: Can be confusing and painful and destructive at times, and yet we need them because they’re a foundational pillar of a happier life. I, they’re so important. I remember when I was young, I could be a little introverted and, [00:14:00] curmudgeonly before I was an old man and to, I would, I could isolate myself.
Dr. John Schinnerer: I could diminish the relationships around me and tell myself that I was okay by myself. I. And then I realized that’s not correct. Like I need relationships, I need friendships, I need love. I need connection if I’m really gonna thrive in this lifetime.
Daniel Ellenberg, Ph.D.: Absolutely. We’re social beings. There’s no question about that.
Daniel Ellenberg, Ph.D.: Now I’m reminded of a book by Matthew Lieberman, who was A-U-C-L-A neuropsychologist. It’s called Social, why We’re Wired to Connect. And, in this book, he brought something up that made me go, wow, duh. Which was higher. Maslow’s hierarchy of needs, which I’m, guessing many in your audience know, but I’m guessing also some don’t know.
Daniel Ellenberg, Ph.D.: But basically at the very bottom of this [00:15:00] hierarchy of needs that Maslow, who was a great humanistic psychologist, had like physiological. Needs. And then there was, I think there was safety or something right after that. And then there was belonging on the third level. And at the very top was self-actualization and then so as you evolve, so to speak, and you become an involved caveman or cave woman, you rise up into this, levels of awareness.
Daniel Ellenberg, Ph.D.: And Lieberman said nonsense. Belonging is actually at the very bottom because if you don’t belong, if you don’t have a belong, like an infant is born completely helpless and without belonging, there is no survival. So you don’t survive. You don’t get to become self-actualize. And so it’s like saying from the very basis, social [00:16:00] relationships are directly connected to survival.
Daniel Ellenberg, Ph.D.: I. Which I think is certainly on one level, super obvious, but it also points to something that I think a lot of people suffer from unnecessarily. And they could have a lot more compassion for themselves. And I’m speaking here specifically about like social anxiety. I’ve seen in my, myself included, not now because I’ve learned more about it, but like going to a party or going to a social occasion or being involved, being into some type of group and feeling anxious.
Daniel Ellenberg, Ph.D.: And then going what is wrong with me? I’m just going to a party. I’m just going out to just meeting some friends out to dinner, like what’s up with me? That I would actually have some issue. Like what a wuss and guys will like you. Yeah. Themselves are being weak and lame and that toughen up and no, I can handle this and bullshit and and tighten up around this.
Daniel Ellenberg, Ph.D.: Versus stepping back and [00:17:00] going, that makes sense. Yeah. A quick little story if I may. Yeah, please. Many years ago I was going to, I went to a barbecue, some party, a picnic out in Mar County where I live, and my wife was gone and every year I’d get invitations to these, to this picnic. I would never go, huh, maybe I’ll go.
Daniel Ellenberg, Ph.D.: And she was gone. I said, I’m gonna go. And so I drove there and it was perfectly beautiful summer day and driving there, and I felt. I felt fine and then I pulled up to the picnic and I looked down. I saw that there were actually like people there at the picnic. I can, hard to imagine and, I had this moment.
Daniel Ellenberg, Ph.D.: It was really weird, like I suddenly felt somewhere between extreme anxiety and panic. And it was more than usual for me. And I saw at that moment how much my, frankly, my own inner work had been working, which is there was a voice [00:18:00] in me, like in, in Mary Oliver’s poem where she said there was a new voice that you recognize as your own that kept you company as you throw deeper and deeper into the world.
Daniel Ellenberg, Ph.D.: And this voice. See I can go from, laughter to tears quickly. This, voice was, it was saying like, it’s understandable, Daniel. You don’t know these people. There’s stranger danger. You’ve had your own anxiety. You’re wired to for threat in some way, what could go wrong? And so it’s natural that you would feel some anxiety.
Daniel Ellenberg, Ph.D.: Going into what feels unfamiliar because I didn’t really know any of the people. I thought that I did know some people there, but I didn’t know that at the time. And when I heard that voice, which was my own, a part of me, my whole body relaxed. And I and you think about just as, a [00:19:00] general lesson, ’cause I don’t think it’s unique to me that the power of self, or shall we say selves acceptance there, accepting that’s what is, and that, why would I be different?
Daniel Ellenberg, Ph.D.: I’m a human animal. Or a human animal wired for threat it’s love, safety, but certainly there’s threat there that a social situation would trigger the potential of being excluded. And if you think about from a psychological perspective, to be excluded from the tribe is to be given a death sentence.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Men’s Counselor: Yep.
Daniel Ellenberg, Ph.D.: And all anxiety on some level draws origin from, the threats of survival. And that’s why we have it like anxiety, pay attention. There could be a threat out there.
Dr. John Schinnerer: Let me, go back a second because you said a phrase that I haven’t heard before that I really love selves acceptance, talk to us a little bit more about that phrasing, because I think it’s quite important.
Daniel Ellenberg, Ph.D.: I, it’s my own, [00:20:00] because I was thinking, I’ve thought about how we talk about self-acceptance and self-awareness and self-love, and I just think it’s more complex than that because most people have certain parts of themselves. That they’re aware of. They have self-awareness about that part or self-awareness, but they don’t have any awareness about other parts of themselves.
Daniel Ellenberg, Ph.D.: Or they’re accepting of certain parts of themselves, but they’re completely rejecting of other parts of themselves or other selves.
Dr. John Schinnerer: And so it, it makes me think of internal family systems, right? Because I remember hearing that theory and I was like, holy shit, we’re all a little bit multiple personality disordered according to that theory, which I, think is absolutely true.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Men’s Counselor: That we’ve got different parts of ourselves swirling around in our mind that come out at different moments based on different perceived threats perhaps. And then you’ve got that wise adult self that we’re trying to keep in [00:21:00] charge of us. All the time, but that’s yeah, difficult. If not impossible for sure.
Daniel Ellenberg, Ph.D.: I
Daniel Ellenberg, Ph.D.: think I have internal pharmacists as great system. Most people, it seems, these days seem to think that whole idea came from Dick Schwartz and it didn’t. Thi this idea of multiple cells and personalities has existed for many decades before Psychosynthesis was a major form Oli, who was an Italian psychoanalyst who was an, I think it was around the time of Freud.
Daniel Ellenberg, Ph.D.: A little, maybe a tiny bit after, but in that, territory. So this, idea about different parts of our cells has been around for a while. And I think it’s useful for people to be thinking about themselves that way. Not because you’re schizophrenic, but because to some degree viewed through the lens of complexity, meaning that we all have [00:22:00] multiple different aspects to ourselves.
Daniel Ellenberg, Ph.D.: It’s so much easier to live. And meaning, for example, like I, I know for me that I am really strong in certain ways and I’m really weak in other ways. And when like I’d be like not being incompetent with technology, I. I would be going, what’s wrong with me? And go into self-criticism around that.
Daniel Ellenberg, Ph.D.: And then all this and, the way that the mind works, it tends to usurp what’s occurring in the moment, so it’s like failing in one thing turns into I am a failure. It becomes part of one’s identity and how you identify and then your body. So it’s reacting to that and you have that crest feel from feeling like intense anxiety and your jaw types, all this kind of stuff happens and when we feel it in our bodies like that, it feels real.
Daniel Ellenberg, Ph.D.: So it reifies, andies the whole [00:23:00] system there and we get stuck in these particular pattern and aren’t able to actually zoom out and even be in touch, as you were putting it, John, with our adult self and being able to see into see, to look at. Versus from that dynamic and when we’re able to look at we, we develop more perspective
Dr. John Schinnerer: with a witness.
Dr. John Schinnerer: Yeah, it was interesting. I was talking with Ethan Cross, who wrote Chatter a book about he, he’s kinda one of the experts on internal self-talk, and one of the tools that he describes in that book is around psychological distance, creating more psychological distance, to your point. And he was saying that the easiest way to do that is to practice speaking to yourself in the second or third person rather than the first person.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Life Coach for Men: ’cause as you know when we get. Flooded emotionally. It’s usually first person singular. Oh my God, I can’t deal with this shit. I’m getting overwhelmed. I can’t take it anymore. So it’s all IME my, and if you can recognize that you’re in that space and flip it to second or third [00:24:00] person, you or John, in my case, John, relax, like you’ve been here before, you’re gonna be fine.
Dr. John Schinnerer: Take a deep breath, you’ll get through this. And it’s funny to me that even the thoughts seem to have an emotional tenor to them. I. Absolutely. But they’re just thoughts.
Daniel Ellenberg, Ph.D.: Thoughts do not, thoughts are like free radicals, they don’t exist unto themselves. They very quickly attach to an emotion.
Daniel Ellenberg, Ph.D.: Logical experience. And they become whole, so to speak, when they attach to others and it happens instantaneously. I don’t think most of us notice, oh, actually the thought wasn’t actually directly related. To that it came hermetically sealed with a physiological feeling of sinking in the stomach.
Daniel Ellenberg, Ph.D.: So it, I think part of it, as you were talking about, that’s learning to really disidentify with it. [00:25:00] I think one distinction is that another person, unlike you, John, could be saying if their name was John, they’d be saying, John, you’re a freaking idiot, John. You’re saying like, they could use third person to criticize themselves.
Daniel Ellenberg, Ph.D.: You went into being more self-compassionate.
Daniel Ellenberg, Ph.D.: Yourselves compassionate there. And, that’s the
Dr. John Schinnerer: important thing. Let’s segue into self-compassion. ’cause I know that’s a sweet spot and a passion of yours. And I, for instance, how do you begin to explain self-compassion to men in particular?
Dr. John Schinnerer: Because I think I’ve, spoken about self-compassion to men and it’s interesting to me because of how attached I, I think I was and how attached they are to that inner critic. I, one guy told me I don’t want to get rid of my inner critic. ’cause that’s how I motivate myself.
Daniel Ellenberg, Ph.D.: This is a huge area and this is something I’ve thought about and [00:26:00] read about and worked with for quite a, quite some time, and it’s, very interesting to me.
Daniel Ellenberg, Ph.D.: Quick story. I don’t know if your viewers will know of Vember. Which is the largest men’s mental health organization in the world. I was in Melbourne, Australia, the January before last, and I met with the guy who was like the clinical director of November there, and he knew what I was doing and he, asked me how is compassion selling to guys?
Daniel Ellenberg, Ph.D.: And he didn’t mean it, he didn’t mean it in a, like a, in any kind of hostile way. He was truly curious because they don’t use the word compassion because of the misunderstandings and, the myths around falsities, around compassion and self-compassion. And I thought that was really illustrative.
Daniel Ellenberg, Ph.D.: I know Eun, [00:27:00] which is a very large men’s organizations that use care, both of them use care, not compassion. And it’s not shocking at all. I, I. Respectful of their decisions, et cetera.
Dr. John Schinnerer, High Performance Coach for Men: It’s interesting because it’s all about what languaging do we use to communicate with men, to connect with men about these softer sides of ourselves and what’s gonna land, what’s gonna impact and what’s gonna affect change.
Dr. John Schinnerer: Even that word we both thought about this for years, I imagine, right? Even that word softer. Huh. It’s, yeah, I’m hard, dude, man. Like
Daniel Ellenberg, Ph.D.: even even
Dr. John Schinnerer: I had to think about what, word to use there that I could convey, what I was trying to convey, like I paused because I’m like, shit, what do I use?
Daniel Ellenberg, Ph.D.: It’s like the reference immediately goes to the penis for some people
Dr. John Schinnerer: I wanna be a flad man. Yeah,
Daniel Ellenberg, Ph.D.: Flad man, f on your chest. Little insignia there. No, I hope they don’t know what [00:28:00] the F means
Daniel Ellenberg, Ph.D.: So what I’ve, done is, said what, does compassion mean to you anyway? And they, people say that kind of stuff and basically what, that’s one of them, which is I will become demotivated. That’s the fear. A fear. I’m compassionate with myself. I will lose my edge.
Daniel Ellenberg, Ph.D.: I will lose all sense of moving forward. I will be sitting on the couch and drinking margaritas and eating pizzas at 12:30 PM and et cetera, et cetera. And, but then you pull out the research and you go that’s actually not what happens.
Daniel Ellenberg, Ph.D.: You are motivated for different reasons, which is to say essentially like the only reason.
Daniel Ellenberg, Ph.D.: Underneath, I’m only motivated because I’m gonna kick my own ass, or somebody’s gonna kick my ass if I don’t do something. Is to basically say, [00:29:00] I am orienting this world because I am terrified of having my ass kicked. By self or other.
Daniel Ellenberg, Ph.D.: As, the primary motivation for life. And I think that’s complete bs.
Daniel Ellenberg, Ph.D.: And so does the say that’s not the reality. It’s it just say that people have a creative impulse and something in, in them wants to come out. How that comes out what, leads to that coming out can be quite variable. And so to really step back, have you always done everything because you know you were gonna be criticized if you didn’t do it.
Daniel Ellenberg, Ph.D.: Did you ever do anything in your life that felt really important to you and you like you had to do that and it was so important you were gonna do it. And it wasn’t that you were beating on yourself. You were really inspired by yourself. You were inspired to do that.
Dr. John Schinnerer: It’s back to what’s the source?
Dr. John Schinnerer: Negative, uncomfortable emotion or positive emotion. Absolutely. Love or
Daniel Ellenberg, Ph.D.: fear [00:30:00]
Dr. John Schinnerer: At the basis.
Daniel Ellenberg, Ph.D.: To some degree a lot of people will do things more because they feel the heat than because they see the light. We, certainly know that in terms of trying to avoid pain IE heat.
Daniel Ellenberg, Ph.D.: Yeah. Versus pleasure, like just directly without all that other stuff. Seeing, the light, feeling the warmth of the sun versus the cool, of the wind. And so I, it’s understandable that people will think like that. So I don’t I’m not criticizing the thinking, I’m criticizing, I’m critiquing at least the, reality behind that because it’s not true.
Daniel Ellenberg, Ph.D.: You people can be extremely motivated because it’s the right thing to do. It’s important. It feels good to do that. And I think as guys we’ve learned to disconnect really from what feels good.
Daniel Ellenberg, Ph.D.: And so you, exercising [00:31:00] because you are an asshole, if you don’t, ideally not you exercise and you feel healthier now, is it always feel good to exercise?
Daniel Ellenberg, Ph.D.: As a pretty regular, not pretty, very regular exercise since I was 20. I played sports and stuff before that, even though it wasn’t in way shape, I’d do it. It’s like you do it because it’s good for You I know, Some people will only be motivated if they have somebody kicking their ass and then if somebody’s not kicking their ass, they won’t be motivated maybe for a while, but eventually some more healthy impulse will kick in.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Best Executive Coach for Men: It feels to me like with a lot of the men that I talk to. There is that vest, those vestiges of playing competitive sports and having that coach yell at you to motivate you. That’s internalized and becomes our inner critic, which also makes us somewhat resistant to [00:32:00] self-compassion.
Daniel Ellenberg, Ph.D.: I. And the self-compassion is being used quite a bit with athletes.
Dr. John Schinnerer: These I have a, oh it’s, a great way to turn the page quickly. If you in playing basketball and you miss the shot, you gotta get back on defense and get your head around the fact that immediately we’re on defense.
Daniel Ellenberg, Ph.D.: As I say for a defensive back is their most important trait is to have a bad memory.
Dr. John Schinnerer: Yeah. Like Ted Lassos quote of be a goldfish. ’cause they have the shortest memory.
Dr. John Schinnerer: How does he know? Was he
Daniel Ellenberg, Ph.D.: a goldfish once?
Dr. John Schinnerer: I don’t know.
Daniel Ellenberg, Ph.D.: Goldfish whisperer. So I, think that. From, an athletic perspective or performance, really perspective, to be kind to yourself is really a great thing. I, have a colleague who was the sports psychologist at Texas Tech and he was teaching his students and he, [00:33:00] was for football basketball, baseball, men’s, all men’s sports, women’s sports. So he was, a busy character. Now he’s actually had a performance for the Milwaukee Brewers
Dr. John Schinnerer: Wow.
Daniel Ellenberg, Ph.D.: Baseball team. And he’s teaching them that there, it’s like.
Daniel Ellenberg, Ph.D.: Okay you failed there. There’s a bad piss. Get back on. You can be kind to yourself and get back in because it actually brings you more into the present moment and you’re most effective when you’re in, the present moment. I. I remember Rick Pitino, who’s a college basketball coach. He teaches players.
Daniel Ellenberg, Ph.D.: He probably still does be in the precious moment. Apparently they weren’t in the pre, in the precious moment in their last game that knocked them out, but that’s another story.
Dr. John Schinnerer: I remember Phil Jackson used to have both the Bulls and the Lakers read Dan Millman’s book, mind Body Mastery every year, and that was all about [00:34:00] such topics.
Dr. John Schinnerer: Yeah, being present, like how do you stay present?
Daniel Ellenberg, Ph.D.: Yeah. LeBron James sitting on the bench. I. With his eyes closed and he is just sitting, just centering himself.
Daniel Ellenberg, Ph.D.: I, guarantee you, he’s not saying LeBron, you’re such a jerk, and what’s wrong with him? I’ll, I would bet anything that’s not his dialogue.
Daniel Ellenberg, Ph.D.: Yeah, he’s encouraging himself. And you think about that, the importance of encouragement, which I believe is under self-compassion. EN is in inward courage is the willingness to go forth despite some level of anxiety and doing it in the pur, in the pursuit of a, goal that feels desirable to you.
Daniel Ellenberg, Ph.D.: So you’re encouraging yourself and I think that self-compassion. It is really one of those great ways of really learning to encourage yourself. It’s
Dr. John Schinnerer: I absolutely agree. Again, to me, I’m an emotion geek, so I tend to look at things through those lens, but it’s [00:35:00] what emotions motivate you better to perform at your peak.
Dr. John Schinnerer: And in general, I would say that’s gonna be the positive emotions. And how do you get there? Self-compassion, encouragement is a really good way to get there because we know that to the extent that you’re being hit with doubt, anger itself. Fear, like those can cause muscle yips, which are but tiny muscle contractions that can pull the bat a quarter inch too low or an eighth of an inch too high and or you, it pulls your shot in basketball off a quarter of an inch, which makes it hit the rim and not go through.
Dr. John Schinnerer: And that’s that’s the level of detail I think that we’re trying to get to in terms of how can we. Get to this place of mind, body Mastery. It’s certain gift at
Daniel Ellenberg, Ph.D.: times. Yeah, absolutely. Certainly it does have to do with, to some [00:36:00] degree, challenging some of the edicts that come from how we learn to be guys.
Daniel Ellenberg, Ph.D.: I we live in a world that’s so critical. In ways that, in, in to critique our traditional ways of masculine is all of a sudden you’re against a man or you’re shaming man, or it’s toxic masculine and you all that garbage, which I’m completely not in favor of this kind of negativ this.
Daniel Ellenberg, Ph.D.: But there’s a way of critiquing and going look being honorable, being loyal. Supporting the group. Those are all noble traits that you can draw origin from traditional masculine. I’m not criticizing all aspects that guys have learned and. Was it Suzuki?
Daniel Ellenberg, Ph.D.: Roches? You’re perfect and you could use some improvement. Know, it’s like [00:37:00] looking at what, how could you be better? And I think about John Wooden, who was a famed UCLA basketball coach who said that basically a really good coach can give, can critique without causing resentment, and it’s like recognizing that, yeah, you’re fucking up that’s not great. Let’s look at that, that you are doing not as the essence of who you are, your core identity, but you’re doing something that’s not working. I know for me, when I’ve been critiqued in that way, and I have been, believe me on more than one occasion, I appreciate it.
Daniel Ellenberg, Ph.D.: Part of me goes, oh look, and I have to disconnect certain way. That’s not who I am. It’s a.
Dr. John Schinnerer: Let let me ask you this. How did you deal with criticism or constructive feedback when you were younger? [00:38:00] Is that a, process that you’ve seen in yourself in terms of learning how to receive feedback in a positive and constructive way?
Dr. John Schinnerer: Absolutely, because I, that was true for me, for sure.
Daniel Ellenberg, Ph.D.: No, I mean for as a kid I sucked at it. Yeah, for sure. They used to crush me. Yeah, absolutely. I. I grew up in, in a very critical household. My mother was a great combination of how smart and cute and wonderful and successful and how you’re gonna be and can’t you do anything, right?
Daniel Ellenberg, Ph.D.: What’s wrong with You My father, we died when I was 10. That’s a whole other story, but he was, I’m sorry, quite critical, yeah. We all have our our paths in life and it’s just, that’s part of my own path, right? So it was very critical. There was no question, and I was very sensitive and I took it all in.
Daniel Ellenberg, Ph.D.: And I led, to being a very disturbed adolescent and [00:39:00] someone who was not sure if he was gonna wind up on which side of the
Dr. John Schinnerer: psychiatric hospital. So how disturbed of an adult are you now? Maybe we should be talking about that.
Daniel Ellenberg, Ph.D.: I’m just kidding. I’m more disturbed now after you said that, but that, was, great because that’s, by the way, that, that kind of circles back to a conversation about guys in play. That could be something like, here, this interviewer, he just tried to knock me off. In some ways there, and I was and you didn’t give it away by that, little bit of look on your face and see I
Dr. John Schinnerer: never would’ve done that had I not known you could play because I know you can play.
Dr. John Schinnerer: I’ll take that risk. If I don’t know that, I would never have said that. And it’s an interesting kind of that social awareness piece of who can I play with who maybe isn’t safe to play with. [00:40:00]
Daniel Ellenberg, Ph.D.: But some it, it may have been I, would say some years ago, even though I, had evolved to a certain point that could have knocked me off.
Daniel Ellenberg, Ph.D.: At that point because I still had much more my own vulnerability to being humiliated. As I had as a kid. And so the kind of things could go from play into threat much faster than they do now at this like this iteration of my own personal caveman evolution, I have to keep,
Dr. John Schinnerer: Yeah. Relevant. I appreciate that. What, I’m sorry, I didn’t mean to humiliate you. That was not my intent, did you? I don’t think so. I don’t know. You’d have to answer that. So let me, the other place I wanted to go in this talk is resilience because, and I think this is a nice segue into it in terms of receiving feedback and, I think we have to [00:41:00] up our resilience and our kinda sensitivity to rejection in order to make use of any constructive feedback, however it’s delivered.
Daniel Ellenberg, Ph.D.: Ideally I, Ideally, yes. And I know that for me, even in the midst of my lack of resilience or my very low on resilience at certain points in my life, I could get could and did get very defensive in the moment when getting what felt like critical feedback. Even if it was or wasn’t. I would read it very often.
Daniel Ellenberg, Ph.D.: Yeah. And I would leave that and I would perseverate, it was like a negative perseverance on it or muse on it or be pissed and, then, but then there’d be a little voice in me that go what’s true about that? What’s true about that feedback As, as hard as it is to hear [00:42:00] and that part of me.
Daniel Ellenberg, Ph.D.: That sub personality in me has really been a salvation because it was always trying to learn something, and that even in the midst of what felt like an acri acrimonious situation, there’s a part of me that was more inclined toward growth than simply, utterly, and completely shutting down forever.
Daniel Ellenberg, Ph.D.: So I, think that it, it hearkens back to what I’ve heard as the 1% rule that in any perception someone has of you, even if there’s 99% projection distortion, there’s always at least 1% truth. So you don’t have to say, oh, yeah that’s, totally true, but to at least reflect yourself, what’s the 1% truth in what this person is saying.
Daniel Ellenberg, Ph.D.: And that for me it might be that, yeah, I still have [00:43:00] sensitivities to these things. They they leave faster.
Daniel Ellenberg, Ph.D.: And not comparing myself to a sensei master, I think about a story of one where one of his students said to me, he says, master, you’re amazing.
Daniel Ellenberg, Ph.D.: You never lose your balance. To which he responded, oh, contr maybe not o contr but he said, actually, I often lose my balance. I just know how to regain it quickly.
Dr. John Schinnerer: Yeah,
Daniel Ellenberg, Ph.D.: and I think that’s really the core of resilience. It’s it’s not steady state Life is gonna knock us off. We can be in a great state and flying high and something happens and it knocks you off and have you, don’t have to let a slip lead to a slide.
Daniel Ellenberg, Ph.D.: We’re all gonna slip and sometimes slide. But we don’t have to completely fall down the Japanese proverb fall down seven [00:44:00] times, stand up eight. And so it’s like gaining and losing balance.
Dr. John Schinnerer: How much do you think that has to do with coming back in terms of your physiology to a resting state or relaxed state?
Dr. John Schinnerer: Definitely
Daniel Ellenberg, Ph.D.: some for sure. I know. I’m 71 now, so I am, your elder and it’s about time you treat me with No, but I paying homage to me, I’m genuflecting. Yeah. So genuine. I could feel it. So I started really meditating after being a dabbler for decades. I became a sincere meditator, I don’t know, 58, 59, so late, in life, really.
Dr. John Schinnerer: Wow.
Daniel Ellenberg, Ph.D.: And, since that time, I very rarely miss a day. Good for you. [00:45:00] 2020. I, did not miss one day. I put it, I was one of my New Year’s quote resolutions there. Don’t miss one day. I’m just like, and that why, do you meditate for those people that don’t? It calms the mind it’s a way really to look at versus from to step back from life is pretty damn frontal.
Daniel Ellenberg, Ph.D.: It’ll knock you on top of the head. More than once, quite often, as it turns out, more than once a day and the degree to which you can regain your balance quickly is really important. And I know for me, I am, I’m a very emotional being. I lose my balance often. I really do every day, but I have found that I would gain it much faster. And meditation has been a part of it. It’s not only meditation. I’ve done a lot of psychological work on myself. [00:46:00] I’ve I’ve been in massive amounts of trainings and workshops and things, and I’m I’m a learner so it’s a lot about that.
Daniel Ellenberg, Ph.D.: But resilience is, a it’s, the core. Human trait that keeps you afloat in the midst of a storm. And it’s, and it really is basically building up your resources on any level financially. If you get nailed. In the stock market, she, has anyone seen their 401k? If you get nailed in the stock market, if you have more money or you have more resources, you’re not in bankruptcy, you’re not, you’re nailed physically.
Daniel Ellenberg, Ph.D.: If you have a good level of health when you get hit by a flu, probably not gonna kill You If your relationship is in good shape and it’s resilient and you say something stupid. And [00:47:00] your partner gets really upset with you, it’s probably not gonna end the relationship, but if things are really on the outs and you don’t have resources in whatever area of life that you’re living in, the next wind could blow you off the map, so it’s, really important to be thinking about how am I building myself? I think a lot of times people pay attention when they’re hurting. But they don’t pay attention when they’re doing well. So I think it’s really important to continue building because entropy, which is the biological or psychobiological reality, that all living things degrade and degenerate over time is an absolute reality.
Daniel Ellenberg, Ph.D.: And so as a human animal, we have to continually push to some degree against entropy and keep, building our resources so that we don’t get taken down into the underworld [00:48:00] faster than we would’ve been if we hadn’t.
Dr. John Schinnerer: Yeah, I think that’s one of my frustrations. Often with counseling, I guess not just men, but people where they come in because of an acute emergency and their emotions are just.
Dr. John Schinnerer: Exacerbated and off the charts, and I’m trying to teach them tools to help them out. And then we get through the acute emergency and they’re like, okay, I’m out. Yeah. And you just came in at the most difficult time to learn new skills, and maybe you wanna stick around a little bit longer so that you can actually assimilate some of these new tools so they become unconscious and habitual when things are calmer rather than only trying to deal with things.
Dr. John Schinnerer: When you’re in an emergency state, which is really difficult to do,
Daniel Ellenberg, Ph.D.: hundred percent. And that’s generally gonna be more true with men than women and, again, these are tendencies are not always, these are [00:49:00] not always the case, statistically more likely.
Dr. John Schinnerer: Let’s talk a little bit about self-awareness if we can ’cause a lot of this, in my opinion.
Dr. John Schinnerer: Rests on a foundation of awareness of our thoughts, awareness of our emotions, awareness of our internal states physiologically. And without that self-awareness, a lot of what we’re talking about I find is at least challenging, if not next to impossible.
Daniel Ellenberg, Ph.D.: If you think about awareness is obviously related to what’s going on inside of you.
Daniel Ellenberg, Ph.D.: And from a guy perspective. And I’m speaking guy perspective ’cause it’s not unique necess, but this is the evolved cave man. Not the evolve, evolve cave with people.
Daniel Ellenberg, Ph.D.: From a guy perspective, guys have learned essentially to distrust the inner world. But if you think about it, at the core of the inner world is the experience of vulnerability.[00:50:00]
Daniel Ellenberg, Ph.D.: Vulnerability is directly related to survival. And so obviously we’re all vulnerable to death and there’s an, there is some level of a sense it may not be a conscious awareness that death hovers around. In some way and, so vulnerability, which guys learn is a bad thing.
Daniel Ellenberg, Ph.D.: Vulnerability is weakness. Vulnerability is what women, girls feel. Vulnerability is absolutely verboten. I am not vulnerable. I am strong. I am well armored. No one’s gonna get to me. And when you think about from the shame perspective, how many guys have been shame? Oh, you’re weak. No, I’m not. I’m a tough guy.
Daniel Ellenberg, Ph.D.: And you see these five year olds learning, to the boy box, that eventually turns into the M Man box. And so to become aware is to be aware really of. [00:51:00] Vulnerabilities inside. It’s not the only thing, but that’s a part of it. And so you can imagine that when guys are going like really what’s going on inside me?
Daniel Ellenberg, Ph.D.: If I look inside me, you’re gonna find parts inside that are completely disparate from what we’ve learned is cool and strong and guy and so of course there’s going to be a sense of keep away from that. And hence not being aware, not noticing, not paying attention to what’s going on and circumventing that process, which I am utterly convinced.
Daniel Ellenberg, Ph.D.: And I think the research would back this up is why men die on average of 5.9 years earlier than women. Because they don’t pay attention. And when there’s a pain there, hey man, just fucking get through it. Don’t pay attention to that, rather than be humble enough to recognize that you are a vulnerable being and you have a body that is not gonna be here [00:52:00] forever and damn.
Daniel Ellenberg, Ph.D.: Pay attention to that. And to be, yeah. And I’m sorry, go ahead.
Dr. John Schinnerer: No I’m, a huge fan of humility in myself and in men. And I’m often espousing it in the sense of humility as we’re aware of what we don’t know, and having the humility to ask for help because I think that runs counter to all that we learn in the man box.
Dr. John Schinnerer: Totally. I then, I always think of like the Simon Garf Funko song. I Am a Rock. It is that, that the epitome of the man box. I am a rock, I’m an island. Oh yeah. Shit. Like I recognize that. And they’re so gentle when Yeah. It
Daniel Ellenberg, Ph.D.: ain’t like,
Dr. John Schinnerer: let Zeppelin
Daniel Ellenberg, Ph.D.: singing.
Dr. John Schinnerer: No.
Dr. John Schinnerer: We gotta wrap up.
Dr. John Schinnerer: Unfortunately I’ve greatly enjoyed this. Thank you so much for your time and, sharing your wisdom. Is there anything that. I didn’t ask you that I should have. One of the things that comes to mind is tell [00:53:00] us a little bit about your organization, your current passion project.
Daniel Ellenberg, Ph.D.: Yeah, thank you. This is where I could get emotional.
Daniel Ellenberg, Ph.D.: Here I am. It’s okay if you do. I, yes. I and internally I don’t. I appreciate your permission and internally I have my own permission.
Dr. John Schinnerer: Good.
Daniel Ellenberg, Ph.D.: To, do that. And I really wish guys would really get this, that there emotions that are not just anger are welcome and that it’s powerful to feel.
Daniel Ellenberg, Ph.D.: And I think about Luca ic who the great basketball player who was traded away in the dead of night from his, team and came back to play for the first time and was being introduced and had tears in his eyes and was, that was beautiful. And it goes, yeah, how things are changing and the world because that would’ve been shamed as like weak or something some decades ago.[00:54:00]
Daniel Ellenberg, Ph.D.: I’m really wanting on a mission level to see a paradigm shift with how guys show up, really how people show up. And I live through the lens of what I call Strength with heart. We’ve mentioned that I’m Coing a book. We’re getting closer to the end of it. Strength with heart upgrading the male operating system.
Daniel Ellenberg, Ph.D.: But I have a view that we need a paradigm shift among guys in particular. To that you can be strong and heartful, and I call it strength with heart the third way, as opposed to strength with no heart, the first way the dominator like, and that’s a lot of what guys learn. And you can look politically, not too far from home and see a lot of that, kind of taking a prisoner mentality.
Daniel Ellenberg, Ph.D.: A complete lack of empathy, a lack of compassion. Just we’re gonna we’re, going to be in charge [00:55:00] because we’re the strongest one, tell you what to do. I don’t believe in that paradigm. And there’s the heart with no strength one, which is like nice and kind but ineffectual and having no boundaries having no, a sense of assertion.
Daniel Ellenberg, Ph.D.: And I think all of this really underlays my work, my non-profit work, and the men and Boys Compassion Coalition, which can be found in the global. Compassion coalition.org website, global compassion coalition.org. I’m on the board there and I’m the chair of the education group there, and I’m, really spending the rest of my life focusing on how do we educate people in general, guys in particular, that you can be compassionate toward others.
Daniel Ellenberg, Ph.D.: And you can be self-compassionate, you can be successful, and actually you can be cool also. You don’t have jerk there I can. And you need really [00:56:00] good examples of that in the world. When I think about like a Keanu Reeves, he seems like a cool, strong and heartfelt guy. And there, there are some others out here, but we don’t have a paradigm out there that says, it says that a lot of young guys are hurting.
Daniel Ellenberg, Ph.D.: And they’re being drawn into some negative corners of the internet because of course they wanna have a positive sense of identity and they’re not getting it from the culture. And so a lot of my work is around helping guys get you can be kind, cool, heartful and successful.
Dr. John Schinnerer: Thank you so much for sharing that.
Dr. John Schinnerer: I’ll put the link in the notes, the show notes. And thank you so much for the decades of work that you’ve done. I, greatly appreciate it.
Daniel Ellenberg, Ph.D.: I thank you, your Honor. I appreciate you, John. Like you, I’ve been on a lot of podcasts. You are one of the very, very best Thank you. And just your sense of ease and [00:57:00] curiosity and genuineness and you the real deal.
Daniel Ellenberg, Ph.D.: So thank you for Thank you. I, take that with as a high compliment. It is a, it is, I don’t know how high I am, but it’s.
Dr. John Schinnerer: That’s later. Anyway without touching that that is it for this episode of the Evolve Caveman Podcast. Thank you so much for your courage, for listening, for your attention, and your heart and strength. If you like this episode, please be sure to review, rate, and share. And if you didn’t like it, that’s okay.
Dr. John Schinnerer: You don’t have to do a damn thing. Until next time, this is Dr. John signing off.
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