Behind Closed Doors: Shana James on Trust, Vulnerability, & Your Love

In this episode of the Evolved Caveman and Love Isn’t Enough podcasts, Dr. John and Joree interview Shana James, a relationship coach with 20 years of experience who specializes in helping men with their love and sex lives. Shana discusses her work, including insights from her podcast, ‘Man Alive,’ and her book, ‘Honest Sex.’ Topics covered include the importance of vulnerability, relational healing, honest communication, and overcoming attachment wounds. The conversation also dives into how to build intimacy, the impact of social conditioning, the challenges of modern relationships, and practical tips for improving connection and trust within partnerships.

Timestamps:
03:22 Playing and Experimenting in Relationships
05:06 Honest Conversations and Deep Connection
08:23 Navigating Disappointment and Building Trust
09:33 Understanding and Healing Attachment Wounds
16:07 Practicing Vulnerability and Self-Awareness
24:55 Exploring Honest Sex
25:45 The Importance of Vulnerability in Sexual Relationships
26:46 Being Present During Intimacy
28:25 Communicating Desires and Needs
29:33 Mindfulness and Sexual Arousal
33:09 Redefining Intimacy Beyond Physical Acts
38:12 Building Trust and Security in Relationships
39:00 Practical Tips for Enhancing Intimacy

Our Guest, Shana James, Relationship Coach:
As a relationship coach for 20 years, Shana James has humbly discovered the causes of disconnection and distrust in relationships, as well as how to build trust and keep passion alive. She has specialized in supporting men who are frustrated with their love and sex lives, both in dating and long term relationships. Shana is the creator and host of the Man Alive podcast, with 300 episodes. She has a TEDx Talk, ‘What 1000 Men’s Tears Reveal About the Crisis Between Men and Women.’ Her most recent book is: Honest Sex: A Passionate Path to Deepen Connection and Keep Relationships Alive. Shana has a Master’s in psychology. She has facilitated decades of workshops based on her training in communication, mindfulness, psychology and sensuality.

To listen to the podcast on Apple Podcasts, click here.

To read through the transcript, continue reading below…

Behind Closed Doors: Shana James on Trust, Vulnerability, & Your Love Transcript

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: Hey, listener, this is Dr. John with Joree today, and we have a very special guest. In fact, so special that we’re doing two podcasts for this one interview. This episode is for the Evolved Caveman podcast, as well as our newer podcast, Love Isn’t Enough. Our guest today is Shana James.

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: Shana is a relationship coach for 20 years and has discovered the causes of disconnection and distrust in relationships she specializes in supporting men who are frustrated with their love and sex lives, both in dating and long term relationshiaps.

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: Shana is the creator and host of the man alive podcast with 300 episodes. She has a Ted talk. What 1000 men’s tears reveal about the crisis between men and women. Her most recent book is honest sex, a passionate path to deepen connection and relationship and keep [00:01:00] relationships alive. She has a master’s in psychology and has facilitated decades of workshops based on her training and communication, mindfulness, psychology, and sensuality.

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: Oh, this is right up our alley. I am so excited. We are soul sisters. And I kind of nudged John and I’m getting in on this interview too, because I want to be a part of this. I was reading your book to her and she was like, Oh, wait, why aren’t we doing this for Love Isn’t Enough.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: I’m like, let me check with her. 

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: Yeah, this is great. So much for being here. I can’t wait for this conversation. Thank you so much for having me. So I just read your bio, but can you tell us in your own words? How you got to where you are I want to hear more about men’s tears. 

Shana James, Relationship Coach: I was just writing something recently about this where, I mean, I’ve had, I don’t know, probably more than a thousand men cry with me at this point because I was leading workshops where men came to get honest and loving feedback from us.

Shana James, Relationship Coach: And it radically changed my life. I was in my twenties when I started that. It was so heartbreaking and heart affirming at the same time, to realize what men were struggling with and how I had never had a window into their hearts and their struggles. It changed me 

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: It sounds like they may not have even had a window into their hearts and their struggles until given a platform to access. 

Shana James, Relationship Coach: Yes. Well said. It was a place where we made it safe for them to come forward in that way. That is, something that I imagine you to talk about and the way I think about it is that relational healing that happens, 

Shana James, Relationship Coach: where we create that kind of safety and then everybody heals in the process of it. Absolutely. 

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: Some of that healing relational work can’t be done outside of partnership. That’s kind of this paradox. 

Shana James, Relationship Coach: Yes, though I do feel like that is what I do when I’m working with men. It’s like, okay, we get to take on sort of role play, but sort of more like Soul play, maybe I would call it, right?

Shana James, Relationship Coach: It’s like [00:03:00] we get to come into each other and play in that space of intimacy. Like, can you be with me right here, right now? Can we be present? Where are the defenses? Where are the ways that we try to, you know, be someone who you think I need you to be and we get to play that out so you can go back into a relationship where the stakes are a lot higher and have more experience 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: yeah. It’s, it’s interesting to me because I use that phrase a lot with the men that I work with play just, you know, thanks for playing with me or let’s play around with this or why don’t you just play around with this throughout the week because it drastically reduces the emotional stakes involved in what we’re doing here.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: It’s just fun experimentation. Yeah, and we can take it so seriously and, the stakes are high, you know, we could lose someone we love dearly, but I think if we don’t let ourselves play, then we get stuck in those dynamics. 

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: That wasn’t even a dynamic that I told myself when John and I first started dating of, I’m going to play this little game of let’s just see what happens when I actually say [00:04:00] how I feel.

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: Because I was conditioned out of that, as many people are from childhood or previous relationships. And I had to look at it like a game, not a mind game that I was trying to, you know, screw with him. It was more about, if I didn’t label it as that in my head, I would have been way too afraid to even try.

Shana James, Relationship Coach: Totally. Yeah. And I think as we play with it, and as we take those risks, we recognize that we’re stronger than we realize, or that the relationship is stronger than we realize, so I know I’ve tried to avoid pain in my life or tried to avoid hurting someone else. That’s been my biggest fear is like, I don’t want to make anyone else feel bad.

Shana James, Relationship Coach: And then starting to recognize. Okay, if I’m not willing to go into that territory or play in the elements of, yes, we’re going to feel hurt. Yes, we’re going to get offended. Yes, we’re going to be disappointed in each other. If we’re not willing to go there, we’re kind of skirting along the surface and not actually being intimate with each other.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: Yeah. Lately I’ve been playing around with that idea [00:05:00] that everything we want is just on the other side of uncomfortable conversations that we’re unwilling to have. And I think, you know, you’ve got some of this in your book about the importance of honest conversations. Can you speak to that a little bit, that idea?

Shana James, Relationship Coach: Yeah, and in the book, I talk about like, what is honesty as I was doing some research and realizing it had not been written about in a very long time or explored. It was like, okay, well, there’s the kind of honesty that, I think is destructive, right? Like, You’re being an asshole or I hate you that might be 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: true, 

Shana James, Relationship Coach: right it pushes people away. And so then I started exploring. Okay. What kind of honesty actually creates intimacy? and how do we mature our honesty so that we can Go to that next level deeper than the surface conversation, it’s like so many couples are fighting over the socks on the floor or, whatever it may be on the surface and actually underneath that.

Shana James, Relationship Coach: And part of how I came to that was watching my parents and [00:06:00] seeing, oh, neither one of them feels supported or understood or cherished or appreciated. And so all the things that they’re fighting about are actually surface level, but deeper than that are the real pains that people don’t always talk about.

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: When I work with my clients, I talk about the details and the patterns the details would be those socks on the floor, the crumbs on the kitchen counter, the dishwasher, these ubiquitous issues that couples feel so emotionally charged about whenever you mentioned the crumbs or the dishwasher. 

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: Yeah. And it’s really scary to look at. Even in mine and John’s relationship, we’ve done a lot of this deep work, but really we got into after he broke up with me two years ago for a short period of time and delving into what’s underneath my fear of not being able to speak to those patterns of the hurt, the vulnerability.

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: And it’s usually some really deep attachment wounds. 

Shana James, Relationship Coach: Yeah. Agreed. 

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: It takes a lot of courage to go there. So what are [00:07:00] some of the ways that when those attachment wounds are deep, that you help your, male clients, build that safety?

Shana James, Relationship Coach: Yeah. I mean, oftentimes when I’m working, With people, but I would say maybe men in particular, sometimes it seems so gendered, but, you know, I think that there’s a way of helping people find their own sovereignty or their own belief in themselves, saying something that they feel vulnerable about doesn’t mean now I’m weak.

Shana James, Relationship Coach: Now I’m less than I think some of that safety gets created when we actually know who we are and we’re not using someone else’s assessment of us to feel worthy. 

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: Gotta step out of those old family patterns of shame or not enough or too much and not project that onto our current partners.

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: Or that belief in self that prevents us from that. Yeah. 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: I love that idea of not enough or too much. I think that’s at the [00:08:00] base of a lot of our insecurities, right? Either I’m too much for you or I’m not worthy enough. 

Shana James, Relationship Coach: And, I am talking to my partner recently as we’ve been trying to figure out, are we going to live together?

Shana James, Relationship Coach: we decided on an in between, like he’s going to move in for a week out of the month for a couple of months. We’re going to try it and just, you know, different experiments. But I woke up one morning and I was like, Oh. I just realized I’m terrified of being a disappointment to you. I’m terrified that if you come up close and you live in my home with my kid and this life and you really are that close in that I’m going to disappoint you 

Shana James, Relationship Coach: Not gone to that deeper level and just been on the level of the surface, which is like, it’s too much. I’m too busy. I’m this, I’m that and just been in those protections. But then we get to really have a conversation about, okay, what happens if we do disappoint each other? And what would be the disappointment?

Shana James, Relationship Coach: And how do we want to navigate this together? 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: I would say what happens when we disappoint each other? 

Shana James, Relationship Coach: Exactly. Because it’s going to happen. Because we are going to disappoint each 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: other. 

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: Well, and we’ve learned, [00:09:00] especially in some of our dynamics. that some of John’s old patterns of avoidant behaviors where he would shut down and withdraw.

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: It was because he was dealing with shame over having disappointed me, even if it was something simple of what you said hurt my feelings. And so we’ve had to learn how to name that without the spiral and to be able to stay in that vulnerable state and honor. we’re going to disappoint each other.

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: We’re going to get in each other’s nerves. We’re going to, you know, get frustrated. And so that’s not the problem to us. It’s more of, and what we got our clients in when that happens, not if what are the strategies that we can access, even if we’re still flooded, even if we’re still triggered, To be able to not let that disconnection get bigger and bigger and bigger.

Shana James, Relationship Coach: And I love that between the three of us, we’ve probably done a hundred or more years of personal growth 

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: and we are all still 60 on my own. And I was going to say, I [00:10:00] think I probably started at three. So, you know, over 40 years 

Shana James, Relationship Coach: I love the humility of being able to say it’s not easy for any of us.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: When it never ends, right? We’re never done growing. 

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: especially, you know, us as couples there, as a couple who have joint clients as couples, that was really embarrassing to be like, ah, shit. Cause during our break, we were still seeing clients and I’m sure they were like, okay, our therapist just broke up.

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: What does this mean for either how good they are or what they’re teaching us? Do we trust them? But it was the humility of saying, look, we’re still human. And no matter how much you’ve been trained in this, how much you cognitively get it when you’re dealing with emotions.

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: It’s a different ballgame of being able to self regulate. 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: one of the questions I had along this line is one of the lines in your bio says that you humbly discovered the causes of disconnection and distrust. can you explain that line? 

Shana James, Relationship Coach: Yeah, well, I was divorced 12 years ago with A one [00:11:00] year old child.

Shana James, Relationship Coach: Thank you. And you know, it was painful, still is painful in some ways, but I think it was one of the best things that’s ever happened to me. my ex and I are co parenting and we’re good friends now. we talk sometimes about what it was like back then we had our different ways of, 

Shana James, Relationship Coach: Shutting down, but neither one of us was able to have mature conversations one of us could at a time, but the other couldn’t and or in different topics. One of us could and the other one couldn’t. And, you know, he’s acknowledged like, wow, you’ve done a lot of work. So I think, the humility comes in.

Shana James, Relationship Coach: I was divorced while I was coaching people in relationships. And so I know what that’s like. and really recognizing that even though I had a master’s in psychology and I’d done all this transformational work I was still a kindergartner when I got married. 

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: We both married our high school sweetheart.

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: So who knows anything when you’re a young person, right? what do you find as the most common? [00:12:00] causes of disconnection. we mentioned the surface level of the socks and the crumbs and the dishwasher, but those patterns are much deeper. So the disconnection that distrust, what do you see as some consistent patterns in the people you work with or what you’ve written about?

Shana James, Relationship Coach: Yeah. I mean, it reminds me of something that my partner has said to me, which he said, I’ve never had this kind of intimacy in a relationship and because we can talk about anything. He said, I feel trust that we can get through anything, and I think that so often people are scared to say, I just got my feelings hurt, you know, or I’m really struggling with the way we divide responsibilities some of it, I think, is just a fear of being known.

Shana James, Relationship Coach: I think some of it is, Feeling misunderstood or not supported, but also just thinking, well, I guess this is how it is. this is what I get. this is even [00:13:00] better than the examples I saw of my parents. So just, it feels to me like if we could all consciously come to the table and say, 

Shana James, Relationship Coach: Hey, this is what I want and need. Oh, cool. where do we line up and where are we going to have some struggles and what agreements do we want to make so that we both feel respected and appreciated and understood? It would be a game changer, but most people aren’t entering into relationships that way.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: Well, it always amazes me how much, like the thing we want the most at some level is to be fully seen. And at the same time, we are scared shitless to be fully seen. 

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: Brene Brown has a great quote in her Netflix special called A Courage, where she says, we all want to be loved, but we’re afraid to be seen.

Shana James, Relationship Coach: Yeah. It’s that memorabilia is scary as hell. Totally. And I think for those of us in the. personal growth therapy world. I think we’re in touch with that desire to be seen. I think [00:14:00] it can be so terrifying for people who maybe haven’t done this kind of work that, I don’t know, some people to me seem like they don’t want to be seen or there’s such a conflict or a struggle inside.

Shana James, Relationship Coach: Like one part really wants to be seen and another part is like, hell no, I am not going to show you this part because. If you see me again, too much, not enough, you’re going to leave me. I’m not going to be the person you thought I was. 

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: Well, I think it goes. I mean, one thing we talked a lot about is the deeper part of I, I want to be seen.

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: However, I’m not even able to see myself. Because. this idea of this image that I have in my head is, you know, a little scab. And if you go pick the scab, there’s fear of when will the blood ever stop? Like it’ll just gush. And if that’s the case, then what? And so that, inability to self reveal as a habit, almost.

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: Self diagnosis from self protection for so long, likely against those attachment wounds in early childhood where they weren’t seen and acknowledged. [00:15:00] Yes. I mean, those are 

Shana James, Relationship Coach: some of my favorite moments when I’m coaching people that like their specific moments with men, whereas a woman ally or a woman who’s helping them heal some of the wounds with women.

Shana James, Relationship Coach: To really pause them and be like, Hey, I see you there and the tears or the like Oh my God, I’ve, it’s so the exhale. Yeah. That way of, of it just, it’s like, I don’t even have words for it, you know, to know that someone finally feels. known or appreciated and then to see what happens as they go out into their lives and there’s less to prove or less to try to, get that approval from the outside.

Shana James, Relationship Coach: there’s just something so powerful about seeing people come into themselves and then realize. Oh, I, actually get to be me and I can be loved even more that way. 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: Shana, let me ask you this because I think it’s a really important [00:16:00] question. 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: How do you coach men to begin to practice vulnerability? 

Shana James, Relationship Coach: Well, I think first of all, we practice it together. So in that way, some people 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: are better at practicing it than others. 

Shana James, Relationship Coach: how do I get them to practice it even with me? 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: initially with you, but then out in the real world as well.

Shana James, Relationship Coach: Yeah. in the workshops, I would often see it like, okay, we’re going to practice here together. So we’re not throwing you back to the wolves. once you get it in your bones, you have more of a sense of I can do this or I know my pattern is to freeze.

Shana James, Relationship Coach: So if I’m in a conversation with my partner and I freeze, I can say, I was expecting this. here’s my tool belt. I don’t have to feel, ashamed or guilty or wrong or bad which creates a whole downward spiral, going back to someone to practice.

Shana James, Relationship Coach: I think it goes back to if we can support people to have that sense of themselves, that self love for [00:17:00] themselves and that knowing that if I mess up, if I say the wrong thing, it’s okay. I was working with a couple last night actually and we were going toward having them appreciate each other.

Shana James, Relationship Coach: And you would think that I would think in my past that having two people turn towards each other and appreciate each other would be simple and easy. And it’s like, Oh shit. So much history comes up and so much mistrust. And how do we rebuild trust? And how do I know that you’re really going to try? And how do I know that, you know, what if I say the thing that disappoints you and then you’re going to leave me if I don’t try, then at least I haven’t broken something.

Shana James, Relationship Coach: Right. slowing down and seeing, what gets in the way and what do you need to feel safe here? how can we create that together? So when you go back into your life, you know what you need and You can create that for yourself instead of hoping someone else would create it for you.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: it’s a fascinating question how and when [00:18:00] should we be vulnerable, especially for men, I’ve coached men to do this for years and it’s fascinating because sometimes they’re with a person that can deal really well with it. they can be vulnerable in response.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: They can validate, they can hear you. And then some days I remember having a high school student who was getting vulnerable with his girlfriend and had some tears and the girlfriend was like, dude, stop being such a pussy. 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: That’s the two ends of the spectrum and everything in between.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: And so I think part of our challenge and being more vulnerable is that fear of how’s the other person going to respond to this? 

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: it’s building a muscle, one of the hallmarks to our relationship stories, I said to John early on, maybe three months in, I accept all of you and I meant it.

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: But it took him probably eight years to believe that. And even though I could have shown up in the way that was allowing vulnerability. Depending on where he was at internally would give from that internal access, whether it was, [00:19:00] a trauma trigger from his past or fully present in the moment 

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: so I think even the access is a spectrum of moment to moment, even irregardless of the safety net that this current relationship is striving to have or actually has. 

Shana James, Relationship Coach: And I think as humans getting to the place where we can actually accept our partner in their idiosyncrasies and their weaknesses and not make it mean, Oh, you’re not who I thought you were.

Shana James, Relationship Coach: it takes a lot, but I think it’s masterful. I talk about that in my TEDx talk not only do I support men to be more vulnerable, I also realize that a lot of women, in the heterosexual dynamic, because we haven’t seen men be vulnerable, when they are vulnerable, we can panic and think, Oh shit, my rock is gone.

Shana James, Relationship Coach: He’s now going to be a puddle on the floor forever. women don’t have the experience that, As I create this kind of safety and love this man and his vulnerability, he’s actually [00:20:00] going to come through this stronger and more loving when you haven’t had that experience, it can be terrifying.

Shana James, Relationship Coach: there’s some education there for people. I suggest that people don’t get vulnerable about the most vulnerable thing in their life first. Even just a small thing of admitting that we’re nervous and then seeing how someone reacts to that if they’re like, Oh, stop that.

Shana James, Relationship Coach: Don’t be nervous. 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: Define vulnerability for someone who doesn’t know what the word means. 

Shana James, Relationship Coach: for me vulnerability is just admitting to something that we feel scared to say or be seen it’s something tender that we hold close to us and maybe that we worry, okay, if somebody sees this.

Shana James, Relationship Coach: Are they gonna still love me? 

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: how would I define it? I think it’s 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: important 

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: To me vulnerability is sharing my authentic truth And 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: I think of it 

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: or acting in not just maybe it’s not just communication but acting in [00:21:00] Or, 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: you could act vulnerably. Yeah. Yeah. 

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: To be, I mean, it’s, it’s a state of being, 

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: it’s a verb. not just a thought or a concept. In my mind, it’s an action of doing, but it, to me, it’s authentic truth. 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: I, yeah, I guess I see it as. The sharing of your internal world, your thoughts, feelings, that internal landscape, much of which we’re terrified to share because we’re afraid of being judged or disappointing someone 

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: Yeah. I mean, people have that desire, but may not even know how to begin to access their own parts. So I think that’s a challenge. how would you say for someone who has the desire to be more vulnerable, but doesn’t even know what that means? if you haven’t been socialized or around people who use.

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: Language or role model, that level of internal self awareness, it might be just a big black hole of, I don’t even know where to start. 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: Well, first you got to figure out what you feel, which is one of the reasons I fell in love with your book because it starts out with self awareness and I’m like, damn, yeah, she’s on point.

Shana James, Relationship Coach: Yeah. First you have to figure out what you feel and what’s [00:22:00] happening inside your emotions and sensations I also spent a lot of time with people. Asking the question of what do you actually want? Because if we don’t know what we feel, we usually also don’t know what we want.

Shana James, Relationship Coach: one of the things that surprised me is that people often come to me. Some people come with a lot of clarity. Some people come with a sense of clarity, but I don’t know if I could ever have this. And then some people come with a like.

Shana James, Relationship Coach: I just know I want something to be different. I just know I want it to feel a certain way, but I don’t know what I really want. I just know I don’t want the next five years to look like the past five years. Or I want to stop 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: feeling the way I’ve been feeling. 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: But I think in response to all this, I think three of the most important questions we can ask ourselves is how do I feel right now?

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: Just to build that muscle of emotional awareness. What do I want? 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: And what do I need? Because a lot of times adults can’t answer those, and those are fundamental self awareness questions. 

Shana James, Relationship Coach: I get stuck with the want need because I’ve definitely been a [00:23:00] good girl, disappear my desires to make other people happy, and so sometimes for me, I don’t even separate the want need.

Shana James, Relationship Coach: I’m like, I don’t know if this is a want or a need, but here’s one of them. And I think it is valuable to distinguish, but I also think if we have a hard time, we can just start with, I don’t know if it’s a want or a need, but there’s something. 

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: It’s about desire to me and tuning in.

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: And especially, I mean, men and women are not each going to come with their own unique challenges of being able to access. And I think women especially are conditioned, like you said, outside of it as caretakers. And. I don’t know if you know who Dr. Edith Eger is. She’s a 95 love 

Shana James, Relationship Coach: her. I love 

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: her too.

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: And a couple of years ago, she posted on Instagram for questions. It was on Passover, the anniversary of when her family got taken back in World War II. she said, the four questions she was going to ask different this year was, what do I want? Hmm. Who wants it? And I think that’s really interesting because she qualifies that sometimes [00:24:00] what we want, we aren’t sure, is it me who wants this or is this what somebody else wants for me or what I’ve been conditioned to push aside my own needs.

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: So what do I want? Who wants it? What am I going to do about it? And when, and I give those four questions to my clients to journal on, and I myself journaled on that. The first one for months, honestly, where every day it was just getting the muscle built. 

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: Am I over attached to it, but just building that muscle of being curious What do I want? 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: I think we parents lose that connection with our wants and needs, right? Because I know when I was a dad of four young kids, like, what do you want for dinner? I don’t care.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: Like what does everyone else want? Because I’m the easiest one to please. far easier to just subjugate my needs to allow for the greater good. And I think that was my family 

Shana James, Relationship Coach: dynamic growing up at least if people could get what they want, maybe there’d be some semblance of peace or happiness 

Shana James, Relationship Coach: yeah. I just want the joy, I want the lightness. 

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: So let’s talk about sex. part of the title of your book is Honest Sex. what does Honest [00:25:00] Sex mean? let’s go into all the sex questions and conversation that I love to have because most people don’t have

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: Yeah. Let’s make the listener really uncomfortable 

Shana James, Relationship Coach: as we really dig into sex or really aroused. Or aroused. Yeah. well, I see honest sex as people knowing themselves and having sex with that honesty and that vulnerability, right?

Shana James, Relationship Coach: The sense of like, Oh, I actually know what I want. I can feel what I feel. I can be honest about what I do like and what I don’t like, or what’s happening for me in this moment. Real people were not taking on a role or playing out a fantasy while fantasies are great and we can play fantasies from a place of actually being honest with ourselves and honest with each other 

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: and for so many couples who aren’t vulnerable in other parts of their life, that’s gonna be really hard to do 

Shana James, Relationship Coach: Which is why the honest section came before the sex section in the book you’re not going to have honest sex you’re not going to have a sex life that feels vital if you’re not intimate or being connected for [00:26:00] real 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: Well, yeah, and if you don’t know what you want need in bed, you can’t ask for it Also, if you don’t feel worthy of asking for it, you’re not going to ask for 

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: it one of the things that we’ve really learned is How often people are people pleasers.

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: And wanting to make the other person happy and what that translates to during sex is not knowing how to receive and always feeling like they have to instantly give back or make it even or do their share and that’s been a practice. Or not feel what they’re 

Shana James, Relationship Coach: feeling because their worth depends on you having an orgasm or you feeling a certain way.

Shana James, Relationship Coach: So I don’t even, I’m not actually in my body, I’m just trying to make it happen over there. 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: Yeah. That’s a really common experience that I’ve heard throughout the years of just not being present when you’re having sex. Can you speak to that a little bit? 

Shana James, Relationship Coach: Yeah. I mean, I think if you’re trying to get somewhere, and so I talked about in the book about, shifting from the goal orientation to the being present right here and now orientation, right?

Shana James, Relationship Coach: If we’re, and I have these experiences in my own [00:27:00] life and I’ve talked about them with clients where when you actually let go of trying to get somewhere else. There’s so much more sensation and pleasure and intimacy that happens sometimes looking into someone’s eyes or touching fingers and being so present can be as pleasurable or even more, you know orgasmic than having what people think of as a sexual orgasm, so yeah, there’s just so much that happens when we slow down and be here together in this moment 

Shana James, Relationship Coach: That’s all part of it and it can take some time to be able to integrate that into sex But I firmly believe that if we don’t do that, there’s a hope that sex will get better over time But we stack so many disappointments and so many you missed me and so many You know, that was okay, but it wasn’t mind blowing because I didn’t say, hey, can you move a little to the left or, because I don’t want to hurt your feelings.

Shana James, Relationship Coach: Yeah, we’re 

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: speaking up, right? We’re not going to be vulnerable to [00:28:00] ask or share or to give feedback. and if we’re disconnected from our partners. As a result of being disconnected from our own self, our thoughts, emotions, sensations, then sex will just be perfunctory and not necessarily an intimate act and maybe really goal oriented as well.

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: I just needed an orgasm. I just needed. To, have a release and now I’m fine, but we don’t feel we’re connected as a result. 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: it strikes me that we have to gain the courage to speak up for what we want and need in bed. And then once we do, we have to hope that our partner will receive it well.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: Because that’s the other part of it too, right? That, oh, that’s what you want? Okay, I can do that. Instead of, what do you mean I’m not doing it 

Shana James, Relationship Coach: Right. 

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: Or I always did that. You never 

Shana James, Relationship Coach: said it was a problem before. 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: Like defensively. And that’s 

Shana James, Relationship Coach: why I do also suggest having conversations, different conversations before, during, and after.

Shana James, Relationship Coach: I think if a couple is in that place where it’s hard for you to hear your partner’s desires without going into the shame of there’s something wrong [00:29:00] with me, then I highly suggest getting support from a coach or a therapist. outside of the moment of having sex, you’re unraveling or understanding why is it so hard for me to be, you know, generous or hear that you like it a different way.

Shana James, Relationship Coach: how does that trigger shame and rejection wounds? So we can be intimate in the moment when we do want to have sex. 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: back to that belief of I’m not enough. 

Shana James, Relationship Coach: Exactly. 

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: Or I’m too much if I’m asking for something. Yes. it’s that same end of the spectrum. 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: Full circle. 

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: I’ve interviewed Dr. Lori Brado, who wrote the book, Better Sex Through Mindfulness. women especially are so cut off from their own bodies and their own arousal sensations. And it fascinates me and I talk about this with my clients, women, a lot around.

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: The business we feel and how disconnected we are. Again, what do I want? What do I need? What am I even feeling? in her studies, she does [00:30:00] a test in which they insert a vaginal probe, almost like an ultrasound. And have the women watch porn and ask them, are you aroused?

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: And they’re like, nope, not aroused. Meanwhile, the probe is like, no, you’re pretty aroused. it’s amazing to me that they are so cut off from the physiological response. Now we know, and I think Emily Nagoski talks great about the difference between arousal and desire. we might not be feeling desire, but our body is still getting aroused.

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: if we’re disconnected, it comes down to so many of these root challenges, right? Fear of vulnerability, disconnected, lack of trust. Yeah. 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: I blame Renee. I think therefore I 

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: am. We could go all the way back there. I think therefore I 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: am. He totally fucked us. Yeah. Oh my god. He started the mind body split.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: I feel therefore I 

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: am. That’s what it should be. That’s where it 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: all starts. Let’s 

Shana James, Relationship Coach: go back and blame the philosophers. He’s the bastard that started 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: it. 

Shana James, Relationship Coach: I think also not making ourselves wrong in every moment is the doorway because what I’m starting to [00:31:00] notice as I’m in this paramenopausal phase is there are moments where my body can be turned on and my mind is kind of like, Do I want this?

Shana James, Relationship Coach: Why do I want this? What am I doing here? And that’s new for me. I’m like, okay, that’s a disconnect that I have not had before. And I could beat myself up, make myself wrong. My partner could do the same thing in his mind like what is wrong with her, or take that personally, right? Or take it personally.

Shana James, Relationship Coach: And the only way that we get through that and find the path is being really intimate with it. Like, wow, what is it like to be disconnected in that way? what is that part of you that doesn’t want it? what’s really going on there? if we really listen to ourselves and our partners, we can grow and learn together.

Shana James, Relationship Coach: I think that creates the intimacy that allows for passion 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: And I want to call out what you just did because it’s very important. what Shayna did there for the listener is she switched to curiosity and that’s such a big deal. 

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: To go [00:32:00] from 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: defensiveness or, I mean, to go from self focus to curious on the other.

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: Well, the other part of what she just did in that description was naming the part of you, not all of you, right? So it’s not your identity. It’s this piece of you, which is, you know, like some internal family systems work, what is this part of you that is experiencing, this does not define all of you.

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: And this isn’t permanent. This is present moment. 

Shana James, Relationship Coach: Yeah. recognizing, Oh, this isn’t permanent. I think we solidify and make things permanent with our judgment or with our attacking or blaming someone else or, not being curious 

Shana James, Relationship Coach: Well, maybe it wouldn’t be how it is if we actually talked about it 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: I like the word petrify there. Like, I think we petrify a lot of our beliefs, right? And we get rigid thinking and we can’t get past them. We can’t think of a world that doesn’t have that as we’re thinking of it. 

Shana James, Relationship Coach: And then we petrify the dynamics and then it’s like, okay, who wants to open their heart and their body when they’re feeling [00:33:00] judged 

Shana James, Relationship Coach: You know, something isn’t going to change, or you’re not going to see me for who I really am, or you don’t care about me and these parts of me, like that doesn’t have us want to open to each other. 

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: Well, I think it also opens up this idea of different levels of what we define as intimacy or how we define sex, because it’s not just an intercourse.

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: Right. And, you know, I remember listening to Lennon Doyle’s podcast and Abby Wombat goes. When she brings me coffee in the morning, that’s the sex. 

Shana James, Relationship Coach: Yeah, 

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: exactly. Exactly. I love that. Right. It’s these intimate moments that are. Unique. And just between the two of you, it could be a glance. It could be a touch.

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: John and I always teach our clients intimacy is all day long. It’s a practice. It’s sending a text. Hey, I’m thinking about you. I look forward to seeing you tonight, whether it’s about sex or not, it’s making your partner feel seen, heard, and validated.

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: Not a lot of the clients I work with feel desired. Do you come up against that the love and the safety and the trust and the connection is [00:34:00] there, but desire of expressing desire, expressing 

Shana James, Relationship Coach: desire can, can be vulnerable.

Shana James, Relationship Coach: Right. It’s like, if I express desire for you, but you reject me, or what I was taught when I was young, that if I express desire, I looked like a slut or right. There’s so many ways. And so that another place of getting curious, like. Oh, okay. if I don’t feel desired by you and I come to you and I’m like, I don’t feel this, you’re not desiring me.

Shana James, Relationship Coach: This is, you know, I don’t want to give you what you want cause you don’t want to give me what I want. It’s very different than, Hey, I don’t feel desired by you. Can we talk about this? Can you help me understand? what would it be like for you to express desire, or what keeps you from expressing desire?

Shana James, Relationship Coach: Is there something I’m doing that’s creating this dynamic? here are some of the things I’m thinking about that would show me that I am desired by you. again, That level of conversation isn’t common in our culture. 

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: for the men listening, please know that for women, the brain is the biggest sex organ.

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: if men are not getting the level of sex they [00:35:00] desire, then maybe be curious about other ways they can express desire versus grabbing your partner’s ass as you walk past them in the kitchen. that may not be what your partner receives as desire. I love that curiosity of what would desire sound like to you?

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: Well, what are some of the concrete suggestions we can brainstorm on what desire might look like for a man to his wife? part of it can be acts of service, right? Just taking out the garbage. How can I take some pressure off of you? 

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: Yeah. Well, I was going to say, that sex porn of book for women, of men doing chores around the house.

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: I think for me, desire comes in so many different forms. it’s gratitude, appreciation 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: touch.

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: Yeah, definitely text. Even just, you know, I love that what I’m cooking dinner and John just kind of stands behind me and massages my shoulder. Maybe just gives me a little kiss on the back of my neck. these gentle little entrees into showing affection, appreciation, gratitude. Yeah. 

Shana James, Relationship Coach: Which doesn’t happen like in the dry, [00:36:00] rigid, we’ve got things to do and kids to take care of and money to handle.

Shana James, Relationship Coach: Desire doesn’t come in that form. And so I think all the things you’re talking about are slowed down, They’re actually like taking a moment to glance at each other or touch each other or be generous with each other, 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: which is also countercultural, right?

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: one of the things that works against us having a solid relationship is the speed of our lives, the stress the pressure the temporal demands 

Shana James, Relationship Coach: Agreed. especially 

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: for a couple struggling with their sex life and intimacy who are raising young kids.

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: I mean, forget it like that. It’s, it’s so hard to find that door in Especially as a newer mom, you don’t want to be touched, 

Shana James, Relationship Coach: I’ve got clients whose husbands might 

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: do that and they shrug them off. Totally. And that’s going to send a message to the husband.

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: I’m not doing that again. 

Shana James, Relationship Coach: Yeah. And that’s why in the book, I also talk, there’s that chapter of what is sex actually, because I agree with you. It can be energetic. It can be emotional. It can be these tiny moments or acts of bringing coffee or [00:37:00] touching your face. I did a tantra workshop with my partner once and there was this exercise.

Shana James, Relationship Coach: I was just like, look at your partner’s face and see how precious it is. And, touch it, with that preciousness. And it was something where it was like, Oh my God. if my family saw me doing that, I mean, my family has made so much fun of me for any kind of intimacy I’ve had with a partner.

Shana James, Relationship Coach: They’re like, Oh, get a room. Or, you know, when I appreciate my. Ex husband that was like when we were married and you know, thank him and I remember my sister being like, why are you thanking him for things? He should just do and it’s like that’s the culture. We’re raised in 

Shana James, Relationship Coach: and it’s harsh and it doesn’t open our hearts.

Shana James, Relationship Coach: We don’t feel wanted We don’t feel appreciated. And so I think expanding sex to actually understand. Oh sex can be a moment of feeling seen or appreciated or touched, whether it’s energetically, emotionally physically, or in our soul, then we stop thinking, I got to get to that one [00:38:00] point where your genitals and my genitals are together and we’re naked can we actually enjoy what happens along the way and even call that sex so that we’re not trying to get to that one kind of sex.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: I think it’s hard to find and maintain connection in a hyper individualistic society like the one we live in. It doesn’t lend itself to slowing down, 

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: to 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: connecting, to appreciating the other. And I think it’s interesting because on one level, the work that we all do is highly counter cultural.

Shana James, Relationship Coach: Yeah. we’re fighting an uphill battle already. that’s sad to me and, helps me feel understood that’s why I’ve often felt so different or so shunned, because even though this feels so right in my heart and soul and body, it’s not what’s actually out there. 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: I don’t think there’s any more important work I could be doing. And yet. At times in my career, it’s been hard to bring that in because of the culture.[00:39:00] 

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: What would be, as we wrap up some of your favorite tips, maybe, tools or suggestions you have in the book for somebody who wants to start to access this level of intimacy, vulnerability, connection, building that foundation of trust. simple practices or things they can do on their own.

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: Yeah. 

Shana James, Relationship Coach: I think starting with either journaling or, you know, however you like to do it, sometimes even when I’m driving in the car, I might make a voice memo to myself asking yourself that question of, okay, what do I want that I haven’t admitted to myself?

Shana James, Relationship Coach: Or like you said, John, we have to know what we’re feeling, what am I feeling right now? I’m feeling heavy. why am I feeling heavy? Oh, there’s this dynamic with my partner that I’m not really enjoying. how would I want it to go if I did want it? where am I feeling hurt or disappointed?

Shana James, Relationship Coach: starting to get more honest with ourselves, I would suggest in whatever way you want to do that. for some people, it’s through desire. For some people, it’s through what I don’t want or what I’m not enjoying because [00:40:00] sometimes it’s hard to get to desire. and sometimes it’s through that, Oh, in this moment, why I’m really upset or disappointed or hurt.

Shana James, Relationship Coach: And to see if you can take the lens of blame or shame or, you know, that’s someone else’s fault. like see if you can set that aside and not judge it and not make anybody wrong, including yourself and just start to explore. Like playing, like we said, okay, what else could be different? What else might I want here?

Shana James, Relationship Coach: It’s so 

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: simple, it’s just not always easy, right? I 

Shana James, Relationship Coach: know. Exactly. And if it’s hard to do it on your own, find a friend or someone you feel safe with who can ask you that question or sometimes a repeating question that you can record on a voice thing or write on a page. What do I want? And then answer.

Shana James, Relationship Coach: What do I want? Again, What do I want? Not have to know and be surprised, like letting yourself actually sit long enough that something [00:41:00] arises instead of you’re going and trying to figure it out or, trying to get the right answer. 

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: I think it’s a beautiful way to start. And we know when we get to that place, nothing feels better.

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: And so it really makes the work or the pain of facing the challenges of the roadblocks that have prevented us from getting there in the past. 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: I like that idea from Julie Manano, who just wrote Secure Love. And it’s not that we’re looking or shooting for a happy thriving relationship, but we’re shooting for a relationship in which we feel safe and secure, 

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: in 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: which we have a secure attachment.

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: Yeah. 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: and that it’s a game changer once you get there and can truly relax into a relationship. I mean, I just did it at 55 and never before. 

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: and those attachment wounds can really prevent the access into developing the capacity for trust and safety. For sure, 

Shana James, Relationship Coach: so that’s another thing too is start to look at what are my struggles?

Shana James, Relationship Coach: What are my challenges? [00:42:00] And then you don’t have to know how you’re going to overcome them, but if you start asking yourself, what am I actually struggling with? Then, you know, maybe you start an internet search of, who supports with that? Or what resources are there? Who can I talk to about this?

Shana James, Relationship Coach: And again, not making yourself wrong that you’re having those challenges, but actually just. Starting to get honest and then see, okay, where do I want to go from here? 

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: one of the things that John and I really value, I mean, we did it in our own relationship, but it’s also the basis of our love isn’t enough.

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: Relationship coaching is recognizing, being clear on what is my work to heal and what is the relationship work to work on, Because sometimes you could be giving the best tools and resources for couples, but if those attachment wounds have not been addressed individually, you’re going to have a really hard time accessing those tools and resources.

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: And, coming back to what John had said a moment ago about security and trust, we’ve also found with ourselves and with [00:43:00] clients. The more of that security, that’s the greater sounding board for playfulness. Yeah, that’s where joy actually comes from, right? Like you can’t banter if you’re not feeling safe and then it’s gonna come across as a criticism or as a jab or as a dig it’s the layers into better intimacy and more fulfilling and satisfying Actual sex not just intimacy Exactly.

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: Yeah, 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: and we know that we have to feel safe and secure And if we don’t, you effectively cut off half of the positive emotions available to you. So I think that’s a really strong argument to shoot for a relationship in which you feel safe and secure. One more question just in wrapping up. Is there anything we didn’t ask you that we should have?

Shana James, Relationship Coach: I don’t know. I don’t think so. I went back to the topic of safety and security as you were talking about it. And I was imagining shut all these flashes before my eyes and you know, a couple where one person makes a joke and [00:44:00] then the other person feels hurt. And then the person who made the joke was like, I didn’t mean it that way.

Shana James, Relationship Coach: Or you always take it that way versus looking into your partner’s eyes and being like, Oh, I’m so sorry. It felt that way. Not what I meant. I love you, right? So from a place of being secure in yourself, then we can create the kind of safety where we don’t need to defend ourselves even though you thought I was being this way.

Shana James, Relationship Coach: So I love that. the focus on, security in one’s own self, and then we get to create that in the relationship, which creates safety, which the couple I was working with yesterday, we went back to that, right? Like, okay, what creates safety? Oh, we’ve got to rebuild trust here. How do we rebuild trust?

Shana James, Relationship Coach: So really just going back to those basic building blocks, and oftentimes when I’m working with a couple, it’s We have to go back to agreements around how are we going to have these conversations, how are we going to make sure that we’re respecting each other, we’re listening to each other, we’re being [00:45:00] curious and compassionate, because We can’t actually work on sex if those building blocks aren’t in place.

Shana James, Relationship Coach: the willingness to go backwards and even though it can feel slower or like it’s a little bit more of a slog to get there, it feels to me like it’s slowing down to speed up, right? there’s a slowdown, but eventually it catapults you into intimacy as opposed to bypassing those pieces. 

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: I love that.

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: how can people find you? 

Shana James, Relationship Coach: You can go to my website, Shana, James coaching. com. I have a quiz there. It’s about what keeps you from having the best love and sex of your life after 40. I’ll give you guys the link to that. my new podcast is called Practicing Love it’s similar to what you guys are doing.

Shana James, Relationship Coach: It’s like, okay, how do we practice and hearing from people about their real struggles and what they’re practicing now? I don’t think of it as, we overcame that and now we’re done with that. It’s like, what are we still practicing? getting that vulnerable sense of what other people are [00:46:00] going through feels really important to me.

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: Yeah, that vulnerability breeds connection. So when people hear those everyday real life stories, they feel not so alone. 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: And what’s the best way for people to get your book, Honest Sex? 

Shana James, Relationship Coach: you can get it on Amazon or if you go to my website, you can also, I think, I think the web, the, the link is my website slash book.

Shana James, Relationship Coach: you can get a virtual copy of it for free or you can order it on Amazon 

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: Shayna, it’s been such a fun time having this conversation. This is right up our alley of what we like to geek out around and go into deeper because it’s all the things most people want, but just don’t even know how to begin.

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: So thank you for the work that you’re doing, and it’s really a pleasure to be able to talk with you and to delve in further on all of these really important topics. 

Shana James, Relationship Coach: I’d love to have you on my podcast too, and I just, appreciate how you are being vulnerable and honest and real.

Shana James, Relationship Coach: to me, that, I think it’s such an example of how it doesn’t. Take away from you being amazing, right? [00:47:00] Just as in relationship, it can be scary. Like if I show this part that I don’t know what I’m doing, then I’m not going to be the strong, independent woman or the strong, powerful man.

Shana James, Relationship Coach: But the reality is that you are more trustworthy and more inspiring because of it. So thank you so much for being willing. I think 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: ultimately the vulnerability makes us more powerful. 

Shana James, Relationship Coach: Exactly. Exactly. 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: so thank you. it was fantastic.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: and that is it for this episode of the Evolved Caveman and Love Isn’t Enough. If you loved this episode, it was meaningful to you. Leave a review, 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: you can like, and share. Sharing’s good, but leave a review. And if you didn’t like it, That’s fine.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: You don’t have to do a damn thing. Thanks so much until next time.