Create An Extraordinary Relationship

In this joint episode, Dr. John Schinnerer and Joree Rose, LMFT talk with two of the very best couples therapists, Charlie and Linda Bloom, who were an integral part of John and Joree’s healing after their breakup. Married for over 54 years, Charlie & Linda have been doing joint couples therapy for over 40 years, leading workshops and courses all over the world. They are the authors of 5 books; the most recent is An End To Arguing. Charlie and Linda share valuable, insightful and practical tools for how couples can work towards and maintain a strong relationship, despite hardships, of which they have survived many. Beginning with a shared value of being lifelong learners, they have always taken the time for personal growth which has served as the foundation for their relationship, as they’ve always been inspired to aim higher. In this episode the quartet talk about the 3 words you should never say to your partner in an argument, how you can have a breakdown become a breakthrough instead of a breakup, and how relationships are spiritual practices. When you can self-reflect and take responsibility for your emotions and experience, reveal with vulnerability what you are feeling rather than conceal it, and continue to communicate until you are feeling complete after an argument, then you can truly reside in the safety of a secure relationship. If you are someone who is interested in building an extraordinary relationship, then this episode is for you.

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If you’d rather read through the transcript, it is shared below for your convenience!

Create Extraordinary Relationship with Charlie & Linda Bloom Transcript

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Therapist: [00:00:00] Hey, everybody. This is Dr. John back with the latest episode of the Evolved Caveman podcast. And it is my distinct pleasure to be here with my fiancee, Joree Rose, and with our two esteemed guests, Linda and Charlie Bloom. Welcome everybody. 

Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: Another, a joint episode of the Journey Forward with Joree Rose and Evolved Caveman Podcast.

Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: John and I love doing these joint episodes and we are really honored to have Charlie and Linda here with us today, who actually was our personal therapist when John and I were healing after our breakup and were an integral part in our healing process. And we had the pleasure of going with them on one of their trips.

Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: That was our Africa trip. And so got to have some real personal time with them as well as far as adventures and connecting. And we’re also here to talk about their latest book, An End [00:01:00] to Arguing. So we’re going to delve into all things relationship and Linda and Charlie, it’s so good to see you guys.

Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: It’s great to be here with you. Thank you for inviting us. Absolutely. So John, do you want to start off how we just got connected with Charlie and Linda? Sure. A little bit of our personal experience with them. 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Therapist: So I was really grateful for a powerful referral from Dr. Jim Bramson, who said, if you want to do it right, go see Linda and Charlie.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Therapist: They’re in Santa Cruz. You can do a one day or two day intensive. I was like, That sounds perfect. They have great experience. They have a lot of wisdom and we came and saw them for, was it two, six hour days back to back. And that was challenging to say the least, like it was exhausting, it was emotional and it was really helpful.

Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: The mere fact that John was willing to show up for two days in a row of six hours each was the commitment enough that I needed to [00:02:00] know he was all in on healing and being willing to go deep and you guys were An amazing soft place for us to land in the midst of that really challenging repair that we were going through.

Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: So can you give us a little bit of background on your journey, how you got to where you are as both a married couple, as well as doing all the couple’s work that you’ve been doing for what, 40 plus years. 

Charlie Bloom, Couples Therapist: But who’s counting, right? 

Linda Bloom, Couples Therapist: Fifty four. Wow. It’s a long time. We go way back to 1968. We were flower children and hippies back in the 60s.

Linda Bloom, Couples Therapist: We go back to bell bottom pants. And we were both college students in Boston. And a mutual fan introduced us at a party. And there was a Pretty strong click in for me right away. The very first day that I knew him. It took Charlie a little bit longer. He was more [00:03:00] reserved, but I saw that this was terrific potential here, we, if we worked at it, we could make something beautiful out of it.

Linda Bloom, Couples Therapist: And we moved in together really fast and we had so much to learn because neither one of us had good models in our family of origin. But a signature strength of both of us is we’re good students. And so we have committed ourselves to personal growth and lifelong learning and finding the best. Books to read, personal growth.

Linda Bloom, Couples Therapist: development books, the best workshop leaders, the best therapists, and the best spiritual teachers, and I’ve just been a glutton for those. And we were very reactive, I’ll speak for myself, that I had a lot of sore spots where I used to get triggered. I’d get triggered if I felt like he was being too, forceful, that he was going to be dominating, and controlling and want to grab the [00:04:00] authority to lead in the relationship.

Linda Bloom, Couples Therapist: And I wanted a real equitable relationship. And I also am very sensitive about being ignored. And so if he was doing his I would take that very personally and feel rejected and unloved. And we had so many places where we needed to have refined, genteel, respectful conversations. And it took us a while, but I told you we’re good students, so we learned.

Linda Bloom, Couples Therapist: And so now I’m just delighted to be able to pay it forward because we got such great help. 

Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: Yeah. Charlie, anything you want to add to the journey? 

Charlie Bloom, Couples Therapist: No.

Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: I’m wondering if that’s indicative of the relationship. 

Charlie Bloom, Couples Therapist: Yeah, it’s been a journey. And as you and your viewers and listeners will probably discover, or you’ve already discovered it in the course [00:05:00] of this interview. We’re very different, especially and Yeah it’s been a challenge at times.

Charlie Bloom, Couples Therapist: And one of the things that I think I take most gratification in is how we’ve come through, not only survived the challenges that are not unique to us. They’re common to most relationships, but we definitely had more than our share. And like Linda suggested, one of the things that we brought into the relationship Was an intention to learn from our experiences.

Charlie Bloom, Couples Therapist: And boy, there’s a lot of learning that we went through. And some of the lessons, as I know you guys and most of your viewers know, were not easy. Sometimes it seems like the most challenging difficult experiences that we have [00:06:00] hold the greatest value. 

Charlie Bloom, Couples Therapist: And one of the things that we learned was that if we can just approach these breakdowns as having the potential for breakthroughs rather than breakups.

Charlie Bloom, Couples Therapist: We can get through this, we can get through this moment, we can get through this interaction, we can get through this hard time. And what it’s going to require is the willingness to really look at ourselves rather than reinforce The predisposition that most of us have to hold the other person responsible for our experience, to hold them responsible for making me upset, for hurting my feelings, for making me angry but also holding myself responsible for having the authority and the power to transform this situation into a new possibility.

Charlie Bloom, Couples Therapist: [00:07:00] So self responsibility has been a key factor. in, in our work. And we’ve slipped up on that from time to time, but we always managed to get back on the horse again after we get thrown. And I think that’s one of the things that’s enabled us to make it as far as well as we have. 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Therapist: I really appreciate something you both said, which is this growth mindset around relationship skills, this intention to learn the value on lifelong learning.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Therapist: I can’t overstate the importance of that. I remember. I was doing an interview in San Francisco and when I finished up, there was a young lady that approached me and said, can I ask you a question? I was like, yeah. She said I’m starting to get back into dating after breaking up with my boyfriend. Do you have any advice on what to look for?

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Therapist: And I thought about it and I was like, yeah, I do. I said, I think what I would look for, the most important thing is a growth mindset around relationship skills. Someone that’s willing and able to grow with you throughout the relationship. [00:08:00] Because if you have that, there’s almost nothing you can’t deal with.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Therapist: Exactly. But so many of us are afraid of growth and resistant to it. And we’re of that mindset of love me as I am, love me or leave me. And I think your point of, self responsibility, but also not blaming the other for your experience is incredibly wise. 

Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: Yeah, I’d love to jump onto that.

Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: I think that piece of the self reflection is often where we see couples getting really stuck. It’s always that externalization of blame, defensive listening rather than non defensive listening, projections. And John and I actually I have just started launching a year long masterclass series on relationships based on frameworks that we have really come to see as truths in how to get to this point of healing and reconnection and deepening connection, not even after a disagreement or argument or just a need of [00:09:00] repair, but just to deepen.

Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: And it’s that constant interplay of self and other. And it, so much relationship work that we have seen who, by Therapists and researchers that I aspire to their work, beautiful work, but the relational work is only a piece of it because you can’t do the relational work.

Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: If you’re stuck on not being able to self reflect be able to understand what’s actually coming up for me here and Linda I love what you said, because I used to get stuck in this a lot more easily that I’m much better at regulating now is not over personalizing John’s differences around our needs. And even when it comes to if we’re in a moment of disconnection and he really needs space and I really seek to have connection during this connection to really honor.

Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: Oh, that’s not me being abandoned. That’s not him not wanting to be around me. That’s not personal to me. It truly is him seeking regulation so that he can come [00:10:00] back. And reconnect and repair took me a long time to understand it wasn’t about me. And I think so many couples don’t have the awareness, especially in that moment of dysregulation to recognize that practice those skills.

Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: So much of what we’re already starting to say, just, it gets me excited because we really, I think all four of us have a very deep passion for teaching this to others. 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Therapist: Let me ask you guys this. Why should we care about relationships? Why are relationships important? 

Linda Bloom, Couples Therapist: Thank you for asking.

Linda Bloom, Couples Therapist: Everybody wants to be happy. And the research is so clean. 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Therapist: Linda, I can be happy by myself. 

Linda Bloom, Couples Therapist: Yes, you can be happy by yourself for a while, but you would need to relate eventually. And, people who are very independent and self reliant and they can get along just beautifully in the world and be very happy.

Linda Bloom, Couples Therapist: But there comes a point where they don’t care. You want to relate to another [00:11:00] person and not in just a superficial way, in a meaningful way, a substantive way. People want to learn from each other. People want to enjoy each other. People want to feel, delight and pleasure in their body. They want to rejoice.

Linda Bloom, Couples Therapist: And the research is so clear. All these people who are studying happiness, over 90 years, these Positive psychology people, and they all say the same thing. All of the people that I respect. You get the biggest bang for your buck in your closest relationships, and more is better and deeper is better.

Linda Bloom, Couples Therapist: So when we get expert in really being terrific. Terrific in our relating. I told my grandson when we had dinner there on Sunday night, after I die, I want to be known for my epic hugs for people to remember me that I was there. I was juicy. I was present. I was generous of spirit and I was, [00:12:00] loving them up.

Linda Bloom, Couples Therapist: and receiving love back. And so when we dedicate ourselves to what we sometimes speak of when we teach, relationship is spiritual practice. It’s not sitting on the cushion all alone doing mindfulness practice. As powerful as that is, we need to take our mindfulness practice into the interactive. realm with those who are closest to us or the ones who are going to push our buttons and trigger us.

Linda Bloom, Couples Therapist: We call that the AFGO, another Triggered. We’re learning our deepest life lessons. That’s why these people are in our life so that we can look and see what is this so sore there? What is it bringing up in me? And I love it when Terrence real says. If it’s hysterical, it’s [00:13:00] historical, and that’s an opportunity to heal some of these wounds that go back very far.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Therapist: Yeah. And I love the reference to positive psych. George Violant, the Harvard study, Harvard Bend study, he was like, Happiness comes down to connection and relationships. Chris Peterson, other people matter. And it’s funny because I think a lot of us that were highly intellectual and highly introverted were of the opinion of I’m fine alone.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Therapist: And I remember it for me, it was like, Oh shit. You’re not going to go out and be social. 

Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: And when you’re, even if you’re an introvert, when you’re with the right person, being alone together is still very fulfilling. And I remember it for you, John, that was something, a turning point for your own awareness in our relationship was it didn’t feel like it.

Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: A drain to be together and actually filled you up, even if you were doing your own thing. And so that was a big awareness for you of wait, Oh, I can be connected and still autonomous or [00:14:00] independent in my activity, but be in a shared space that was connected. 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Therapist: I think there’s that the other end of the spectrum where you can be in a relationship and still be lonely in the relationship, which I think is like its own special form of hell.

Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: Oh it’s a horrific purgatory to be in a relationship in which you are really lonely. I’ve often joke, I just was talking about this another day with a client that I wanted to start a Hallmark line of cards for people who are still in relationship, but really feel nothing, but still have an obligatory card to have to give at a birthday or anniversary, because that’s a really painful disconnect when no words match.

Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: And yet, oh, what do I do? It’s this holiday or birthday and, this loneliness and I think there’s a lot more of that than we really realize. So what do you think is the breakdown for people? Is it a fear of self awareness, a fear of learning the tools, a fear of intimacy? What do you think really prevents people from getting out of that cycle that [00:15:00] we see so many people actually in when they’re not happy, they’re not connected, they’re not growing?

Charlie Bloom, Couples Therapist: Yeah, powerful question. Thank you. Thank you for that jury. I would say all of the above. And of course, with some people more towards one fear than another one, but when it, comes down to it. There is hardwired into us an aversion to pain, whether that’s emotional pain, physical pain, there’s, you instinctively withdraw your hand from the hot stove, you instinctively shut down emotionally.

Charlie Bloom, Couples Therapist: when something is activated within you that feels uncomfortable, that’s difficult to accept, that conflicts with your self image. So we have a natural healthy [00:16:00] aversion to pain because pain, emotional or physical, Is an indicator that something is right. Something is not okay here right now. Something needs to be corrected.

Charlie Bloom, Couples Therapist: Something needs to change. And when we’re living in an environment in which that feeling gets Activated in a prolonged way, continually, then we build into our own responsive system a defense that is going to protect us when that pain that we’re anticipating is just around the corner is going to come up and whatever defense mechanism we’ve created for ourselves.

Charlie Bloom, Couples Therapist: Whether it’s to counterattack, whether it’s to withdraw, whether it’s to rationalize, whether it’s to justify, whatever it is, that’s going to kick in, and we don’t decide to do [00:17:00] that. We’ve already integrated that reactive pattern, that protective pattern, and so that’s going to happen. It’s, that’s just, that’s a given and I don’t care how much work you do, it’s not likely that you’re ever going to reach a point where you never get triggered.

Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: Damn it. Damn it, Charlie. Really? 

Charlie Bloom, Couples Therapist: I hate that. I know. But, yeah. 

Linda Bloom, Couples Therapist: I want to add. 

Charlie Bloom, Couples Therapist: Yeah. Okay. 

Linda Bloom, Couples Therapist: I want to just add to what Charlie’s saying, and I’m totally with him, about the aversion to pain that’s built in. It’s hard, hardwired. But I also want to add that what I have found over the years of teaching and doing counseling is that people set their sights low.

Linda Bloom, Couples Therapist: They don’t reach high. They don’t feel worthy and deserving of having the best, of having the best career, of having the best life, of having the best relationship with depth of connection, and they [00:18:00] settle. So one of the things that I find when I work with my counseling clients and teach my classes is to stimulate and inspire those people, and I want to do it for your listening audience right now, to consider that they may be settling for much less than is available.

Linda Bloom, Couples Therapist: And if they need to get a support group, a women’s group, a men’s group, a couple’s group, go to workshops, find a therapist who will really see them and mirror back their wonderfulness and their signature strengths to them, do what you can, because when you see what is available and possible to you personally, this pain that stops people, you’re willing to pay some prices to get it.

Charlie Bloom, Couples Therapist: Yeah thank you for that, Linda. I just wanna finish saying what I was saying ’cause I don’t wanna leave people with a sense of despair because No. We’re all stuck in this hopeless situation. It is not [00:19:00] hopeless at all. The positive side or the productive side of pain is that it awakens us to a need that requires us to fulfill it in some way.

Charlie Bloom, Couples Therapist: Without pain, we wouldn’t take our hand away from the stove, without pain, we would continue to subject ourselves to experiences that are not productive for us. 

Charlie Bloom, Couples Therapist: When the inevitable happens, and we do get triggered. There’s two ways that we can respond to that we can respond from our automaticity, our automatic reactive.

Charlie Bloom, Couples Therapist: Pattern and reaction is when those old feelings get triggered as opposed to responsive, which is a more responsible way to respond to the other person. And what that, the difference there is that when I’m reacting, I’m just, I’m on automatic and the way I [00:20:00] can tell I’m on automatic is because.

Charlie Bloom, Couples Therapist: We’re back in the cycle again. We’re just, we’re back in it. And and I have some degree of awareness. I’m conscious of how this isn’t working. This is really not helping things. And to remember, I do have a choice. And it’s always the same choice. I can either keep reacting, defending myself, keep being, trying to control or influence the other person, or I can just self reply, I can check in, what am I experiencing, what’s going on right now, what are my concerns.

Charlie Bloom, Couples Therapist: What’s my fear? And then, and this is the challenging part, I mean it’s challenging to self reflect, but it’s also really challenging to do this next step, which is I can reveal rather than conceal to my other partner, [00:21:00] here’s what’s going on for me. I can get, I’ll use the V word, vulnerable. And it’s the failure to be willing to get vulnerable that I think is what keeps.

Charlie Bloom, Couples Therapist: All of those repetitive cycles alive in people’s relationships, ultimately what the resistance is, what the fear is, it’s the fear of getting vulnerable. Why? Look at the word. What the word literally means is to be exposed to danger or threat. In other words, you’re taking off your defenses. You’re disarming yourself of your normal defenses that you use when you feel threatened, and you’re exposing your tender underbelly to them.

Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: And 

Charlie Bloom, Couples Therapist: that is the challenge of relationships. 

Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: And that’s the moment [00:22:00] many people, I was going to say that’s the moment many people want to run. 

Charlie Bloom, Couples Therapist: Absolutely. Because 

Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: it’s so fucking scary. There’s a fear of rejection. There’s this idea of that emotional backdraft from self compassion work of if I start to dip my toe in this water of emotion, what if I drown?

Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: Where will it stop? That’s a really easier said than done practice. Oh, 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Therapist: way easier said than done. Absolutely. Let me ask you this, Charlie and Linda, how do you persuade people That vulnerability is a skill that they should practice in their relationship because to me it’s been a very hard sell.

Charlie Bloom, Couples Therapist: Yeah go ahead. 

Linda Bloom, Couples Therapist: I would say that my own personal sharing about how far I’ve come. to become courageous enough and brave enough to show my underbelly to be able to risk bringing how much fear and anxiety has run me a [00:23:00] lot of my life and it was a peak experience in my life early in our relationship i wanted to really have an honest relationship with charlie and i told him I wake up very frightened every morning facing the challenges that I’ve taken on because I’m, I’m not going to let them stop me, but they really, I take on a lot and they scare me.

Linda Bloom, Couples Therapist: And I just keep pitting myself against the challenges, but I have so much fear and I don’t want to hide it. I don’t want to have an image, on with you. I want to tell you the truth. He says, bring it all to me. I’ll eat it. And that was so meaningful to me because I had to pretend in my life with most of the people in my life that I was more courageous than I really felt.

Linda Bloom, Couples Therapist: And so I felt that I could be loved as is with my neuroses and my kinky little sore spots and all of those things. And so when I tell stories of [00:24:00] myself. about how far I’ve come. I think that inspires people to risk being vulnerable, and to reveal rather than conceal, and get out from behind the image that they give to most of the world.

Linda Bloom, Couples Therapist: You don’t want to do it with everybody of course. Of course, but with chosen intimates, you want them to really know you they know your glorious, magnificent signature strengths, and they know your weak suits too. Because if they say, I love you, you want to be nourished deep in your soul. They really know who you are, that you don’t have this little voice say, but if they really knew me, they wouldn’t love me.

Linda Bloom, Couples Therapist: And you can’t get to that place where you feel really loved abundantly unless you risk being vulnerable and showing all of who you are. 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Therapist: It’s a hell of an answer. Thank you. 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Therapist: The other thing that I realized recently, I think you’re absolutely right. [00:25:00] Modeling is a great way to go.

Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: And we’ve been very vulnerable, especially over the past year, publicly on our podcast with our clients about our own realities of our hardships as a couple.

Linda Bloom, Couples Therapist: And 

Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: We get a lot of appreciative feedback saying, thank you, because, Hey, if we can’t role model it, then we’re not doing our job. 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Therapist: Yeah. And the other point to that, to add is Amidst this epidemic of loneliness, particularly among adult males, is there was recent research that Joy and I have talked about before, about friendships and how long it takes to go from an acquaintance to a friend and a friend to a best friend.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Therapist: And it takes about 40 to 50 hours to go from acquaintance to friend of time together. And to go from friend to best friend, it’s about 150 to 200 hours, which if you tell that to an adult who’s got a family and they’re busy with work, that can be really demoralizing, right? They’re like, I don’t have that kind of time.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Therapist: And then the caveat to that is they found a [00:26:00] loophole in that and the loophole is vulnerability. And when you’re vulnerable with people up front, it collapses that 200 hours to 45 minutes. 

Linda Bloom, Couples Therapist: Whoa. That’s a big savings. 

Charlie Bloom, Couples Therapist: One of the reasons why it’s so rare for that to happen. I think John is Although there is a huge benefit from early vulnerability, there’s just as huge a risk involved in being vulnerable before you have assessed the other person adequately as being a safe recipient.

Charlie Bloom, Couples Therapist: To your vulnerability. So it does take some time for that trust to build and somebody’s got to go first. Somebody has got to be the first one to get real, to get authentic, to get [00:27:00] vulnerable. And in most relationships. We’re both hoping that the other person will go first. 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Therapist: It’s interesting. I’ve just been playing around with this idea, especially since my son died recently, and sharing that with people who are acquaintances.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Therapist: And some can deal with it magnificently, and some get uncomfortable by it. That’s right. I get both, right? But I’m so appreciative for the people that deal well. It’s like an instant connection. And then often they’ll respond with a vulnerability of their own or something they’ve been struggling with.

Linda Bloom, Couples Therapist: And even the ones who aren’t up to playing at the level that we want to get real with us and to get vulnerable with us, there is value because each time we risk and somebody can’t meet us, they change the subject or somehow make us bad and wrong for exposing. Do you know, a bullshit detector gets more refined.

Linda Bloom, Couples Therapist: And intuitively we start to be able to sense it’s like we have little feelers [00:28:00] out and we get to sense the people who are more trustworthy from the people who are not really up to it yet. 

Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: I’m glad you said that Linda, because I was going to say there are some people who I truly don’t believe have a desire for being vulnerable, being in an authentic, deeper related relationship.

Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: And, we’ve been talking a lot about the book, adult children by adult children of emotionally immature parents and just emotionally immature people, not everyone has that desire. And, so I think one of my growth points has been navigating, recognizing who are the people who are available for that and who are the ones who aren’t, and then be able to navigate healthy boundaries.

Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: As a result of wanting more from a relationship than someone has the desire or capacity to show up in and that’s not about me right back to that personalization. Not everyone has the depth that the four of us are talking [00:29:00] about wanting to create and yet the four of us know how beautiful and rich it is when we get there.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Therapist: And I have to say though that my intuition has been wrong sometimes in who I can be vulnerable with and who I can’t. Or who doesn’t receive it well. And it’s just been fascinating to me to play around with the concept and see who deals well, despite my stereotypes, who doesn’t. 

Linda Bloom, Couples Therapist: What you’re saying, both of you, is reminding me of hearing Ram Dass speak.

Linda Bloom, Couples Therapist: And he was talking about when he makes an overture to somebody and he feels rejected by them, his response, after a lot of spiritual practices, Oh, too bad for them. I’m so wonderful. They’re missing out on a good time with me. 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Therapist: It’s an invitation to engage at a different level. And, those people that can do it, great.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Therapist: If you can’t, I understand that too. 

Charlie Bloom, Couples Therapist: But the only way to really find that out, I [00:30:00] think, John, is to put it to the test. 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Therapist: Huh. 

Charlie Bloom, Couples Therapist: That is, you’ve got to be willing to take the risk. More than once however, if your overtures, your invitations to more meaningful interaction continually meet with some form of rejection then, it, then you’ve got some evidence To make that decision on and if that person responds, in a more favorable way, then you’ve got some other evidence, but you can’t know your intuition is not going to tell you it’s wrong sometimes, but the evidence from your putting out that your own vulnerability in that invitation which can be as simple as saying something like, wow, it I’d really I’d really like to get to know you better.

Charlie Bloom, Couples Therapist: A lot of us feel that way, [00:31:00] but it feels a little risky to actually, what might that other person feel? How might they respond to it? So it’s an incredibly important assessment to make whether or not this is a player I’ve got here. He’s really wanting, motivated to engage with me the way I want to.

Charlie Bloom, Couples Therapist: And sometimes you can be incredibly pleasantly surprised by somebody who, you put it out and they go, yeah, me too. And then they, they respond accordingly. And then you know there’s some potential here, but you can’t find that you can’t rely just on your intuition, but it to the test 

Linda Bloom, Couples Therapist: when I invite people to risk pressing gently and respectfully that edge of their comfort zone.

Linda Bloom, Couples Therapist: To make a bigger area to play in, I feel like I have a leg to stand on because I’ve been so risky in the books that I’ve written, particularly the memoir. In all of our [00:32:00] books, we have a lot of personal before and after stories as our teaching, but the memoir was one of the most difficult times in our life that we ever went through when we hung on the edge Of maybe not going to be able to make it as an intact family.

Linda Bloom, Couples Therapist: The kids were still small and Charlie was, working so much and out of town and away. And we wrote a highly detailed description of the hell ropes that we were living in and how we were dangling so close to the edge. And, How it is that we made it through that time so that it was a breakthrough rather than a breakup.

Linda Bloom, Couples Therapist: And we reveal a lot when we teach, we reveal a lot when we counsel, and we reveal a lot when we write. But it’s all for the purpose of inspiring other people to make their threshold bigger for how risky they’re willing to get out there on the skinny [00:33:00] branches. 

Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: Yeah, I love that Linda so much. And again, it’s that interplay of the self inner work and the relational work right to be able to self regulate when feeling anxious and overwhelmed or flooded or triggered so that you can stay available for that.

Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: I have a question. We know from the research that from the Gottman’s research, approximately 67 percent of problems in relationships can’t be solved. And I know I work with couples who almost every time we talk, it’s the same version of the similar patterns that get repeated. Different details arise week to week, but we’ve got underlying patterns that seem to sometimes not be able to be solved or fixed.

Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: What are some of the ways that you guide couples in those stalemates or just a roadblock of moving forward. What are some of your best tools for that? Okay. 

Charlie Bloom, Couples Therapist: One thing I try to remind the people [00:34:00] that I’m working with is even couples with fantastic relationships have irreconcilable differences.

Charlie Bloom, Couples Therapist: The whole notion of when you used to have to justify divorce irreconcilable differences was one of the justifications for it. But if every couple who had irreconcilable differences got divorced, nobody would stay married because everybody has them. The question isn’t, how do we both whose perspective is going to dominate here yours or mine is getting out of that whole binary saying system and looking beyond that too.

Charlie Bloom, Couples Therapist: Okay. So what are our options here? You don’t want to have children. I want to have children. That’s deal breaker. Not necessarily some things that appear to be deal breakers. May not be, but we’ve got to begin [00:35:00] by looking at the possibility beyond a binary choice, that seems like a deal breaker, right?

Charlie Bloom, Couples Therapist: That seems like that’s not working. Can’t have half a kid. Yeah. Unless 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Therapist: you’re King Midas. 

Charlie Bloom, Couples Therapist: Yeah, no, not King Midas Solomon. Thank you. But so if you begin with the assumption that one of us is going to dominate here, one of us is going to lose and I’m not going to be the loser, then, you’re stuck.

Charlie Bloom, Couples Therapist: In a paradigm that is fundamentally unworkable. So you’re going to start by asking the question. Okay, we both see it differently. This does not look good. Is there any other possibility here? Is there any way we can somehow begin to move towards some common ground, something that we can both live [00:36:00] with to be open to that as a possibility?

Charlie Bloom, Couples Therapist: And I have worked with couples who begin with that polar opposite. And some, not all of them, of course, some of them have managed to stay together in ways that have worked. And while it seems this is not something that you can compromise on, if you really feel the need to have a child and you really are opposed to it.

Charlie Bloom, Couples Therapist: That sure seems like it’s not workable. But I’m just using this as an example of how, if we look at it not in terms of one of us has got to go over to the other one. One of us has to give up something. The other one’s going to dominate. And instead look at it as, okay, this is a real challenge.

Charlie Bloom, Couples Therapist: What do we have in common here? What we have in common is we both really want this to work, we’re both really committed to it, and we both have strong feelings [00:37:00] about, 

Linda Bloom, Couples Therapist: And I’m 

Charlie Bloom, Couples Therapist: using this as a very dramatic example, as this whole childhood, child question. If we start with that and look at are there any steps that either one of us can take that can move me in the direction of the other person.

Charlie Bloom, Couples Therapist: So many of us are looking for the dramatic transformational moment. The breakthrough. It’s going to cause the breakthrough and everything is going to work out. But, and as I know you know that relationships improve, not because of huge breakthrough moments, but because of incremental changes, small steps.

Charlie Bloom, Couples Therapist: in the direction of mutual respect and understanding. So when you hold that as a perspective, it doesn’t feel so overwhelmingly [00:38:00] hopeless. We may not have the breakthrough answer, but maybe we can look at certain steps that we can take. Or that we can ask our partner to consider taking that can move us towards some common ground.

Linda Bloom, Couples Therapist: And I want to add to what Charlie’s saying. I feel that what he’s saying is profound and useful, and I feel compelled to add that there really are some legitimate deal breakers, and that not every Committed partnership or every marriage deserves to be saved. Yeah. And it’s important to be honest with ourselves and not live in hope or not be under the illusion and the fantasy that we can change them to fit.

Linda Bloom, Couples Therapist: Our Prince Charming or Princess Charming ideal, and if one person is hell bent on having other children, and the other person doesn’t want them, they may try to find common [00:39:00] ground and do it respectfully. Nobody’s bad and wrong here, but they may not be Properly matched. Another one that we find sometimes is there’s one partner who wants polyamory, and the other person only wants a closed container for their sexual relationship.

Linda Bloom, Couples Therapist: And, they might try polyamory. One person may, try to do monogamy and feels too restrained by that. Or the other person may feel that they want to share and they try it and it just rubs them raw and they can’t do it. And if it’s true that you’re a mismatched pair, the only kind and loving thing to do is to free each other to go on to find someone who really will be aligned with their values.

Linda Bloom, Couples Therapist: Yeah, sometimes people have the mistaken idea about us because we’ve been doing couples work so long, and we’re a stand for do your work, but we mean, do your work and [00:40:00] one or two things will happen, either that breakthrough will happen. Or it won’t. But you will know, because you will have given it everything you have.

Linda Bloom, Couples Therapist: And you may find that you’re not good together, and that should be a real possibility that you can face. 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Therapist: Thank you for the beauty of that answer. I’m sorry, Jory. Yeah, I just wanted 

Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: to add one more quick thing to that and then we can wrap up soon. And I want to talk about the book. I think what’s really beautiful about what you just said, Linda, and thank you both for the depth of that, is Love isn’t enough.

Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: And this is one of the things that John and I talk about and teach a lot about of love isn’t enough. And if we’re just blind to believe I love you, it’s going to work. That may not be the most loving thing you can do for your partner. That’s right. And it’s deep wisdom to recognize when is work not working for, now we’re now not living in authenticity or respect [00:41:00] or, we’re just.

Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: Bringing out the worst in one another. And I believe sometimes relationships have soul contracts and not everyone’s supposed to end up forever together. And that doesn’t mean it wasn’t a successful relationship for what you learned or what you created. So I just want to name that piece because I think for anyone who’s listening, who Perhaps may be in that purgatory place of do I stay or do I go there’s no wrong answer and not everyone It’s meant to always work out and that doesn’t mean it was a failure.

Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: I hate when people say oh that marriage failed No, it didn’t you were you gave yourself the opportunity for a partnership and not it not working out doesn’t mean It failed. It meant it wasn’t meant to last in this capacity. So I just wanted to get that last little caveat there for people who are listening.

Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: And what do I do? It’s give yourself some grace and compassion. And if you do the work on yourself, it’ll benefit the next relationship too. 

Charlie Bloom, Couples Therapist: Definitely. 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Therapist: Yeah. So I wanted to bring up one of the hundred and one tools in the book because this one’s a personal favorite of [00:42:00] mine and I think it was instrumental for Jory and I in healing after our breakup.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Therapist: But would you guys talk a little bit about non reactive or non defensive listening? 

Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: Can you actually before you answer that just talk a little bit about the book and end to arguing like you said, John, there was one of your tips, but just the context of the book of having 101 different lessons. Just how did you get to that?

Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: Because I want to get to that answer, but just get the context of the book. 

Linda Bloom, Couples Therapist: Okay, so what you’re looking at here is a couple of recovered hotheads.

Linda Bloom, Couples Therapist: Back in the day. At first I was cowardly and anger phobic and God bless Charlie. He told me the truth. I can’t be with anybody that’s not honest. If you’re going to try to candy coat the cesspool, my words, not his, can’t be with you. So I had to get myself together to grow some courage pretty fast to Be more direct and honest and tell him the truth when I was unhappy because things [00:43:00] were slipping out by the side.

Linda Bloom, Couples Therapist: He used to call those the zingers that would slip out. So we had a lot to learn. I already said we didn’t come into this relationship in our very early twenties. We were still mostly kids, with good models, but we learned. How to make our statements and talk about our own experience and take responsibility for our own experience and not blame and shame the other person.

Linda Bloom, Couples Therapist: And so we we had a particular area of expertise. Pertise, that’s helpful with couples because so many couples are drawn to their compliments and then the very same things that magnetize them to each other drive them nuts and sometimes drive them apart. And so we had learned so many different things that we figured we’ve helped a lot of students and clients.

Linda Bloom, Couples Therapist: Let’s write it down for the people who don’t go to counseling or workshops. And we distilled it down to little tiny [00:44:00] chapters and people can just. picked by their area of interest. And non reactivity is one of the ones that is of high interest to most people who read the book, because we all have our places where we get, ah, I don’t want them grabbing power.

Linda Bloom, Couples Therapist: I don’t want to be exploited. I don’t want to be neglected. I don’t want to be abandoned. We all have those sore places, but if we can hang on to ourselves. and see what it is that’s so scary and what’s hurts, then the way in which we communicate is a much more vulnerable way than shaming and blaming and making them bad and wrong.

Linda Bloom, Couples Therapist: And that’s the way out of the reactive pattern, that we see, what is it in me? It’s so tender here. And we were just talking about the irreconcilable differences. We see it a lot in the couples where one is a saver and one of them is a [00:45:00] spender. And they haven’t really looked inside to see the own part of themselves that they put in the shadow.

Linda Bloom, Couples Therapist: And that they’re full of judgment about the spender or the saver because they have to own that part of themselves. We see it a lot with the couples who, they’re bashing heads about how to raise the kids. And one of them strict wants limits and consequences, and the other one lays it bare and says life will give them consequences.

Linda Bloom, Couples Therapist: And the person who wants to have more form and structure hasn’t really owned that part that wants Freedom themselves. Maybe they didn’t have freedom and they are afraid to allow the Children to fall down, get up so it can show up in a lot of different ways. But when we notice our reactivity, that is just Goldmine of information to learn about ourselves and to heal those places that are so tender and sore and to report [00:46:00] out about them in a very vulnerable way because there’s always fear and hurt underneath and sometimes sadness and grief and those tender feelings are the way to go down deeper underneath the irritability, the anger, the reactivity and the resentment.

Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: It’s so much easier said than done. And when John and I have been practicing non reactivity, non defensive listening, it allows conversations to get to that gold much quicker. And it gets to repair much quicker and it gets to understanding much quicker. It doesn’t mean it’s always easy, but it’s a muscle to build.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Therapist: And I think we found that it allows us to let go of some of those old emotions. We’ve been holding on towards the other. If, there’s a philosopher that many years ago said, that we can just be rid of our baggage and our story. If we can just sit down and share our story without interruption with one person.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Therapist: And [00:47:00] so to have. Like Jory at one point was angry at me and yelling at me. And because I had put in a lot of practice, I just listened and I said, yeah, I can see where that’s really making you angry. I can see where you’re pissed off. And when she was all done, I said, thank you for sharing your anger with me.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Therapist: I didn’t defend myself, 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Therapist: I think that was quite cathartic. Yeah, 

Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: it was hugely cathartic. And ironically, John’s been really encouraging me to get in touch with my anger. That was never an emotion. I even knew what to do or feel with or how to express it. And he has very graciously encouraged it.

Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: While simultaneously not reacting to it. Now that doesn’t mean there hasn’t been reactivity. We’re still human, but our intention is to allow the space to communicate about it because if it’s anger, if it’s sadness, if it’s depression, if it’s anxiety, whatever it is, it’s real emotion. And again, we over [00:48:00] personalize so much of it.

Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: And as a result of feeling safe. Feeling my anger, and he’s allowed me to feel safe expressing my anger, I can let it go. 

Linda Bloom, Couples Therapist: Yeah, I hear your gratitude for john and I have the same gratitude for Charlie. 

Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: Yeah, 

Linda Bloom, Couples Therapist: I was brought up in the south to be ladylike and genteel. Do you know, and not to let that anger show, and I will be grateful, all of my days it’s one of the reasons I’m so crazy.

Linda Bloom, Couples Therapist: I’m wild about him, but that he accepted me, that part of myself that had been rejected for a very long time. 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Therapist: And Linda, I love you much more unladylike and non genteel.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Therapist: You’re so much more real. 

Linda Bloom, Couples Therapist: And I 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Therapist: gotta say for the listeners, I have to say for the listeners, I don’t mean to present myself as a saint. That’s me at my very best. And I, Full disclosure, I’m not there all the time, but that’s the goal. [00:49:00] That’s what I’m striving to get to. 

Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: I love the format of this book because I love the short little chapters, the headliners to catch your attention.

Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: And one of the ones I just want to quickly touch on because we see this a lot and it tends to be gender dynamics as well. But the heading is if you don’t want her to be in that treat her like a thoroughbred, and it really makes me think of the Terry real book How can I get through to you, which we don’t I often talk about and we think the thesis to that book is.

Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: Women are unhappy with their men because they want their men to be more, more present, more aware, more communicative, more affectionate, more vulnerable. And men aren’t unhappy. They’re unhappy when their women are unhappy with them. So there tends to be this perception of being a nag or wanting to connect or to talk more like John used to get frustrated.

Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: If after a repair a couple of days later, a week later, I’m like, Hey, can [00:50:00] we talk about that again? And he was like, Shit, really? Didn’t we talk about that? We have to go there again? And as I say, if one person’s Disconnected, then we’re both disconnected. If one is unsettled, we are unsettled.

Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: So it’s not me nagging him. It’s me seeking greater connection. So what does that you guys take to speak a little bit to that of, if we don’t want her to be in and that be an ad, you’d like to throw over. And I love the phrasing on that. 

Charlie Bloom, Couples Therapist: Yeah the impulse whenever we feel stressed or threatened in some way.

Charlie Bloom, Couples Therapist: Is to try to control the other person either by accommodating them or by intellectualizing something, or, just in some way. When that gets triggered, that, that’s what we want to do. And, of course, the problem with doing that, with operating from that program, our previously internalized program of defensiveness the problem with doing that is that [00:51:00] it does not address the complaint that the other person is registering.

Charlie Bloom, Couples Therapist: Basically what she or he is saying is something is not working here and I need for us to address it because I’m feeling incomplete. So we use that word a lot. Are you complete with this? That have you come to terms with this in a way that it’s not it’s not a problem for you anymore that it’s no longer something that keeps coming up in your mind all the time.

Charlie Bloom, Couples Therapist: It’s not a withhold. So are you flatlined in terms of this is no longer a major issue for you. And when we get defensive. We’re essentially pushing back on the other person saying, I don’t want to talk about this anymore, and they’re saying, but I’m incomplete. They’re not using those words, but that’s what their message is.

Charlie Bloom, Couples Therapist: I’m incomplete. And if we don’t, address this again, I don’t care if we’ve already addressed it 20 times. [00:52:00] There’s still more that I need. And sometimes we do need to come back and return to the same subject because we get into deeper and deeper layers of it. So sometimes, we do have to do it more, many, more times than our mind thinks that we should have to, or that the other person’s mind thinks that we should have to.

Charlie Bloom, Couples Therapist: When we refuse to engage, then What we’re doing is we’re allowing a dysfunctional condition to be present in our relationship without attending to it, without paying attention to it, without dealing with it. So what’s going to happen? Nothing good is going to happen from that. It’s going to just draw more negativity.

Charlie Bloom, Couples Therapist: It’s going to keep coming up. And whether we talk about it or just stuff our feelings down, it’s going to show up in our relationship. It’s going to show up in the level of trust and respect that we have for each other. When people see this, [00:53:00] when they see the link, the connection between their defensiveness and some of the difficulties that they’re experiencing in the relationship, that it’s not because of the other person.

Charlie Bloom, Couples Therapist: It’s partly the other person, but they can’t do, we can’t do anything about them. All we can do something about is ourselves. And when we see I can connect the dots here. My defensiveness is always leading to the same thing. And her defensiveness is leading to the same thing. So there’s no possibility of getting one of the, one of the titles in one of our chapters in the book that people are often asking about is don’t use these three words.

Charlie Bloom, Couples Therapist: I don’t know if you remember that, but those three words are you’re being defensive. And when people [00:54:00] use those words, they are giving the other person a great reason to be defensive. Because they’re basically accusing them of something that they see as the problem. You’re the problem, and if you don’t stop being so damn defensive, then we’re not going to get anyplace.

Charlie Bloom, Couples Therapist: They, it may be true that they’re being defensive. Is there any way that they may have reason to feel defensive with you right now? Might you be reacting to them in ways that cause them to feel threatened? Which inevitably is going to activate their defensiveness. 

Linda Bloom, Couples Therapist: So I wanted to just say that Gottman’s research says that 80 to 85 percent of the issues of the relationship are broached by the women.

Linda Bloom, Couples Therapist: It’s the wise 21st century man who does the heavy lifting in the relationship and brings the issues up, or at [00:55:00] least welcomes them when she brings them up. And back in the day, when we were having a lot of disconnect and trouble and fought a lot. When we were at our worst, I was trying to bring the issues up to get complete because we were so disconnected.

Linda Bloom, Couples Therapist: And Charlie, when we were at our very worst, fortunately this decades ago, would call me bottomless pit. You are never satisfied and what I love hearing him say now, what I love about you is that you’re never satisfied that he knows that he wouldn’t have come as far as he’s come in his life as an individual, and we wouldn’t have come as far as we’ve come as a couple and in our career flourishing without the willingness to bring up the toughest issues.

Linda Bloom, Couples Therapist: I love all of that. And for bringing 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Therapist: that up. I, [00:56:00] sorry, Joy, let me put this point in because one of my big ahas in this relationship with Jory was, and when she would bring up a disagreement again, a few days later and I thought we had resolved it, I would be like, Oh man, seriously? And so that was my initial reaction.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Therapist: And then over time, I realized. How wise it was to do this. And we would revisit some of these arguments or disagreements five, six, seven, eight times. And I realized that the more we did this, the further I could get away from it, the better perspective I got on it, the more objective I could be, the more curious I could be.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Therapist: The further back in my past, I could go with curiosity to look at what is it that’s bringing this trigger up for me. And then we would get to that point that you mentioned, Charlie, of completion. And we could tuck it away and put it to bed. And I think it brings this image of an upward spiral where you’re continually going over the same issues, but every time you do, you’re getting better and better.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Therapist: As opposed to a [00:57:00] dealing with 

Charlie Bloom, Couples Therapist: it, viral going down the rabbit hole. Yeah. 

Linda Bloom, Couples Therapist: There’s still layers under the layers and we really drill down there. It’s gorgeous material to contact. 

Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: And it can feel counterintuitive to revisit something when it seemingly is calm and you don’t want to rock the boat or ruffle the feathers.

Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: So it is courageous to bring it back up if you’re not complete. 

Linda Bloom, Couples Therapist: That’s right. And 

Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: people often are afraid. I don’t want to bring it up again because we’re things are going good right now. 

Linda Bloom, Couples Therapist: Yeah. 

Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: And I often when I do couples work, I’ll start off each session and say, how is your week? And if they say, Oh, we’re doing good.

Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: I always ask, are you doing good because there were no triggers? Or are you doing good because you responded differently to the triggers that arose? 

Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: Because if it’s just good because there was no triggers, great. Like life’s easy when it’s easy. But let’s get to how are we responding differently to your point earlier, Charlie, about responding versus reacting.

Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: And so John I really appreciate that you’ve recognized that my [00:58:00] Ongoing incompleteness ended up being a value for us. So thank you. But I, part of it is having the right language. And I love that language of I’m not complete because it’s owning your experience. It’s not accusing the other person of not doing their work.

Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: It’s saying to me, I’d like to feel more connected right now. Are you available to talk about that? 

Linda Bloom, Couples Therapist: And 

Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: for me, I love the language of I’m available or not available because again, that’s just owning your own experience in the moment of what your boundary might be. And that might be, you know what, I’m not available for that right now, but I will be available for that after I’ve had some more time or I need a better night’s sleep or what it might be.

Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: But I could also imagine that there might be in addition to those three words you mentioned. You’re being defensive. There’s probably another set of two words that probably should never be spoken, which is calm down. 

Linda Bloom, Couples Therapist: The last 

Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: thing anyone’s ever going to do including a tantruming child or an upset partner is [00:59:00] ever going to calm down when you say calm down 

Charlie Bloom, Couples Therapist: Boy, yeah, that does not make me feel calm.

Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: No, Charlie, Linda I so respect you guys so much, as I’m sitting watching you guys you’re sitting on the couch that John and I sat on when we were in your home doing our work and it feels so familiar to be around you and Places both personally and professionally that we have so much alignment, and we are just so grateful to be in connection with you guys.

Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: It’s been a very deep, meaningful experience for us both personally and professionally, and I just want to say thank you so much for the work that you’re doing. And you’re role modeling the vulnerability and it gives John and I, great excitement to see models of our career as we continue to do more of our couples work as being in relationship with one another.

Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: I think it adds a whole extra amazing rich value to work with clients as couples in a couple. So it’s a beautiful role model for [01:00:00] us so I’m going to speak for John and I just say thank you for being our role models. 

Linda Bloom, Couples Therapist: You’re very welcome. I committed myself way, way back in the early twenties to live in a life of service.

Linda Bloom, Couples Therapist: And it’s been tremendously gratifying to live a life of service and particularly helping couples to be closer with each other and doing my bit to create more intact families. And it’s fun when we interface with other. people like you two who have a similar mission. So it’s fun to have a mutual admiration society like we got.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Therapist: And I got to say it, it cracks me up the similarities between the four of us in our dissimilarities. 

Linda Bloom, Couples Therapist: In other words, 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Therapist: I’m quite similar to Charlie. You’re Linda, you’re quite similar to Jory and it, the similarities always leave me awestruck and amuse me. 

Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: Share about your upcoming workshops you have.[01:01:00] 

Linda Bloom, Couples Therapist: Yes, we’re teaching our most popular workshop, which is Secrets of Great Relationships at Esalen Institute in Big Sur. Esalen’s just a magnificent experience in itself for people who haven’t been there because it’s on the banks of the Pacific with these awe inspiring views and the food’s really good.

Linda Bloom, Couples Therapist: But we pack a lot of value in a weekend. It’s a Friday night, Saturday, and Sunday morning. And we deal Quite a bit with issues about differences and how to harness the power of the differences and learn from the differences and respect the differences and also to gently push aside the barriers to deep intimacy.

Linda Bloom, Couples Therapist: Especially looking through the eyes of appreciation and gratitude at our partner. And some of the hardest things that we experience with them have embedded in them the biggest life lessons that they’re in our life to teach us, if we can open to it. It’s wonderful to spend a [01:02:00] weekend at Esalen.

Linda Bloom, Couples Therapist: It’s one of those gifts to yourself that keeps on giving and I always tell people if you decide you want to do a workshop at Esalen, ours or anybody’s, sign up early because they have limited housing available. So there would be room perhaps in the workshop, then you wouldn’t be able to be housed on campus.

Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: I, Esalen’s my most favorite place, so that, anyone who can experience you guys in Esalen what a gift. And we’ll have those link in our show notes as well, and also a link to your book and to Arguing. Anything else you want to wrap up with and say as we complete this beautiful connection?

Linda Bloom, Couples Therapist: We took you to Kropalu, too, on the East Coast. I don’t know how far your range is, but we’re coming to Kropalu the weekend before Valentine’s Day. People can get us in the Berkshires in Massachusetts, too. Got some closing remarks. 

Charlie Bloom, Couples Therapist: Couple. I want to thank you guys for inviting us on to your shows. It’s really been a pleasure, [01:03:00] and like Linda, I really love being able to have these conversations with other people who share our commitment to promoting healthy relationships.

Charlie Bloom, Couples Therapist: It’s just such a pleasure. And I know that you know that. I know that you know the pleasure that comes from passing your, what you’ve learned on to other people who you know are going to pass it on to others. We are all touching many more people than we even realize. And they’re touching other people, too, by what they’re learning.

Charlie Bloom, Couples Therapist: So this is transformational work. And I really, I honor your commitment. I honor our own commitment to it, also. And yeah thanks for inviting us on. And thanks for the work that you’re doing. And I’m looking forward to continuing. On the journey. 

Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: guys so much. [01:04:00] And I know that you guys also do trips that we like the one that we went on with you guys to Africa.

Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: And so if you guys who are listening ever have an opportunity to join Charlie and Linda on one of their big trips, that’s a gift as well. And I’m just, I’m very grateful. Thank you so much. And all the links will be in the show notes, John, anything you want to end with? Yeah. 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Therapist: I just wanted to say in closing.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Therapist: I’m grateful for. Your wisdom, and I’m really grateful for your friendship. So thank you. 

Linda Bloom, Couples Therapist: Very welcome. Thank you for the work that you’re doing in the world. It really makes a big difference. All right. That is it 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Therapist: for this episode of the Evolved Caveman Podcast and Journey Forward with Jory Rose. If you liked this episode, please be sure to like, rate, review, and share.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Therapist: If you didn’t like it, you don’t have to do a damn thing. Until next time. 

Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: Take care, everyone. Be well.