At the root of all happy and fulfilled relationships are deep connections – emotional, spiritual, intellectual, and physical. Connection is something we all say we want and yet not many know how to actually achieve it in a reliable way. In this episode, top couples counselors, Joree Rose and Dr. John Schinnerer share some far out stories about their plunge into spirituality, owl familiars, psychedelics and healing their relationship following a difficult break up.
Building Deep, Healing Connections In Your Relationship
To assist you in deepening your own soul connections, Joree and John are excited to offer the latest ways to learn more about yourself, the barriers to your own ability to connect vulnerably and authentically with others, as well as relational tools to strengthen your partnership. Reserve your space in our new monthly Master Class to learn new ways to cultivate more connection & intimacy with your loved one!
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If you’d prefer to read a transcript of the episode, read on below! And, as always, thank you for your interest in growing your relationship.
Creating Deep Healing Connection in Relationship Transcript
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: [00:00:00] Hey, everybody. This is Dr. John back with the latest episode of the evolved caveman podcast. And it is my honor to have with me today, my fiancé.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: Hi, it’s Joree Rose with a journey forward with Joree Rose podcast. John and I are here to continue to share our journey of both the ongoing healing of our relationship and both the inner work and relational work that we have done specifically over the hard parts of 2023, which we are so grateful to have behind us, but yet there was so much that went on.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: And we’ve shared a couple of episodes already jumping around in the timeline of our breakup and what we did to get back together. And obviously more recently about you going through the grief with the loss of your son. But we want to rewind a little bit and [00:01:00] share more of what happened in the middle because we have really crazy experiences that were really spiritual, powerful, connecting, and not easy to explain in a logical, rational mind.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: Yeah. And you’re so good at providing context. So thank you for that. And so let’s go back to early 2023. Okay. We were Just looking at getting back together. Yes. And you were going on After a
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: short but painful breakup. We weren’t even broken up for Six weeks, barely two months.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: And you were heading out on a cruise with a friend was it Esther Hicks?
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: Yeah, Abraham Hicks, yeah.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: Abraham Hicks,
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: Law of Attraction, yeah.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: Yeah. And I have had eye troubles, to put it mildly, over the past, I don’t know, eight or nine years. [00:02:00] And I’ve had three surgeries on my right eye, two where they tried to fix a 90 percent detached retina, and then a corneal surgery where they replaced the lens.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: So that was my bad eye. And for a couple of years afterwards, like I couldn’t read, I couldn’t do computer work, like it was significant. When they’d asked me to read a letter on the eye chart, I just saw a wavy white rectangle on the there wasn’t even a letter. And it was pretty scary. And over time, I worked on that and it slowly got better, which was encouraging.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: And right about the time you left for this cruise, I started having floaters in my left eye, my good eye. And I thought, Oh, this isn’t good. And immediately called the ophthalmologist. They got me in, or the optometrist. And he [00:03:00] took a look in my eye and he said, yeah. He said. It looks like you got a retinal tear let me make a call.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: And this was about four o’clock in the afternoon in Pleasanton.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: And it was a
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: rainy day. It was stormy. It was stormy. And they had dilated my eyes too, which is significant. And so he calls the retinal specialist and he says, the retinal specialist will see you right now. Go to Walnut Creek. And I was like, oh shit.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: In the middle of rush hour.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: That’s not a good sign when you got one good eye, and they’re rushing you to the retinal specialist. And, so I’m, my eyes are dilated, I can’t see very well to begin with. It’s pouring rain in rush hour, and I’m trying to get to Walnut Creek as quickly as I can.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: So for those who don’t know, that’s that’s 30 minutes on a good day without traffic.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: Yeah. And I made it there. I remember they called me and I was almost there and they’re like, where are you? I’m like I’m just a couple blocks away because it was five o’clock and the [00:04:00] office was closing. And I went in and the retinal specialist saw me and I’m really grateful because he stayed an hour and a half with just me it was just me and him in the office.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: But he took a look in my eye and he goes yeah, I don’t see just one tear. And he started counting. I see two, four, seven, yeah, there’s about 10 tears in there. And I’m like, and he’s we’re going to have to try and zap him with the laser and see if we can, and I’ve done this before, I guess I’ve had four surgeries on the right eye.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: If count that as surgery, but It’s a very, it’s an uncomfortable procedure where they’re shooting a laser into the back of your eye to form scar tissue around the edges of the tear so that it doesn’t tear anymore. And every burst lights up your [00:05:00] eye like a star just exploded. And you can feel it in the back of your eye.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: It’s a really odd sensation. And so he hits me about three times and, I’m taking it and he realizes We got a lot of this to do. And he says, I’ll be right back. I need to get some anesthesia. And I was like, Oh boy, I hope that’s a spray on or a pill or something. They’re going to inject in my arm.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: And it wasn’t any of those. And he comes back with a needle of lidocaine that he’s going to inject in my eyeball. And I got six shots in the eye, one of which he’s look left. And I’m looking directly at the shot coming in my eye.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: Going through your mind. How did you mentally get through that?
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: Thank God for mindfulness practice for you to breathe and I think it’s present,
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: but I think at a certain point you also go into shock.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: Yeah. [00:06:00]
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: You just, this is what I got to do, like I didn’t even know this sort of barbarism was possible. I didn’t realize modern medicine did this kind of stuff.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: And you were
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: there alone.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: Yeah. And I was there for an hour and a half then, getting lasered in the eye and this, like I got hit so many times with the laser, he’s wearing it on his head. It’s like a, it’s a unit attached to his forehead and it got so hot. He had to put Kleenex between his forehead and the unit.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: And he’s sweating and I’m like, wow, this is wild. That’s intense. So then he finishes and he’s I want to see you again in two days or something. And I’m like, okay, shit, I got to get home now. I got one bad eye and I’m blind now in the other eye temporarily. And I got to get home at dark in a raging storm.[00:07:00]
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: So I went and got some dinner just to give my eye a little bit of time to recover. and then slowly crept home from Walnut Creek. And so that was the start of another journey.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: Because the question in my mind when I’m going through something traumatic, Is what am I supposed to learn from this?
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: What’s the symbolism? What’s the meaning? What’s the purpose? Yes, I understand that there’s a physical aspect to this. Absolutely. And I think there’s something more to it than just that.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: Can I pause with that question just really quick? Because I think that’s something you and I share deeply in common outside of What we have brought to each other in our relationship is looking for deeper meaning.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: And I’m curious, for you listening, how often that question comes to you. What am I here to learn? Why is this happening? Yes. It’s a physical aspect. Yes. This is, a legitimate medical issue. And I [00:08:00] personally, under the belief there’s often spiritual meaning into almost. Everything. I guess we can take it too far, but I always find that question to bring a little bit of peace because it can say, okay, there’s purpose to this.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: I don’t know what it is yet. It might take a long time to find it, but for me personally, it brings a little bit of peace to the storm.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: And we know from research that it’s one of the ways to go from post traumatic stress to post traumatic growth. The people that can do that ask themselves, what am I supposed to learn from this?
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: And I also think on a cosmic scale that. The universe, however you want to put it, life presents us with lessons and we’re presented with those lessons over and over again until we get it. And so the easiest way to move through life is to understand the lesson, adapt and move on. The hardest way to go through life is to continually be hit over the head with the same damn lesson, which I see some people do and it just looks really painful.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: And [00:09:00] I think those are ones that get stuck in that victim role mentality, right? They can’t get out of becoming the hero to heal their own
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: suffering. It’s really, it’s empowering, right? It’s, I’m the hero of my own story. I’m going to deal with this shit. And in the end, I’m going to see myself as more resilient, as more heroic, as more
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: Yeah.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: So that’s the other kind of tangent I wanted to take is I want to talk about this.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: Did you, in the moment, did you have an answer to that question yet? Of what am I supposed to learn from this?
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: No, in the moment I just felt sorry for myself. I was down. It was rough. I was like, I can’t just believe, I can’t believe that just happened.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: Yeah.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: I felt violated at some level.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: Understandable.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: And it’s also, the best thing for me. At some level.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: And, we were just on the cusp of getting back together. I had just reconnected with you the day before, saying, committing to, I want to be with you. I want to be back together.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: And now here [00:10:00] I am on the other side of the country, completely helpless as you’re suffering. Like my heart was just torn in half of, I should be there. Why aren’t I there? Like he should not be going through this alone was horrible to witness that level of suffering for you. And for me not to be there,
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: I’m sure
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: it’s horrible.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: So before we get to the woo spiritual part of this episode, I have to do a brief disclaimer. Because my training in the PhD program at UC Berkeley was. all science, hard science, empirical science, data backed research. And that was what I was trained in. And that’s what I believed was the lens through which to see the world when I came out of there at 2930.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: And I think science is a brilliant framework. I love science [00:11:00] and At this point in my life, I’ve also struggled with the concept and realize and I’m comfortable now with the idea that science is merely one lens through which to see the world. And science sometimes lags behind some truths that have been out there for thousands of years.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: Science moves slowly. And science can’t explain everything. And science is limiting for us as humans at some level on, I would say an emotional or spiritual level. And it’s interesting to me because I’ve done a lot of reading about scientists over the past hundred years and whether or not they felt comfortable espousing spiritual beliefs.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: And it was not done until maybe 20, 25, 30 years ago. And then it slowly began where scientists felt comfortable saying, I am both [00:12:00] a scientist and I believe in spirituality. Because before you would just be ostracized for it, it could kill a career.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: Yeah.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: And yet I think, we’re big enough to contain multitudes, we’re big enough to contain paradoxes, we’re big enough to contain contradictions.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: And so I really worked to come to peace with this idea that part of me is a scientist, part of me is research and data driven. And then there’s part of me that. While I know there can be no empirical proof of God or higher power, the emotional side of me finds it greatly comforting and reassuring and reduces my anxiety to believe that there is a kind, forgiving, loving God with a sense of humor.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: That’s my God. And so that’s the caveat to the rest of this story, because this story gets a little It
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: gets pretty woo. And I really appreciate that availability for you to embrace more of the spirituality because [00:13:00] I think I come from a very spiritual approach and not religious, but just belief in the universe.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: Things happen for a reason. What’s the lesson here? What’s the message? Sometimes I over attach to the message and give it a little bit too much credit as I’ve done in the past. And. I think when we first met, you were a little bit more data driven role, the research says okay, that’s helpful. I agree.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: And so it’s been really actually beautiful to witness this cracking open of more acceptance into the things that can’t be explained. Because this past year came with a lot of shit that is not super easy to explain from a cognitive, rational viewpoint or perspective.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: Yeah. Okay. So that said, so I’m recovering from this eye issue and I think I put it out on Facebook and got a lot of support and love and I appreciate [00:14:00] that.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: So thank you to everyone that, that did that and did the same stuff with when Brett passed. I really, it means a lot to me. And I’ve got a friend who we’ve traded interviews, podcast interviews, Nishant Garg great young man. And he called me up and we were talking and he said, Hey, I want to give you a gift.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: I want to set you up with my spiritual healer and I’ll pay for the session. And I was like, and I’m practicing, taking in love. I’m practicing asking for and receiving help, which is hard for most men, maybe everybody. And I think it’s a really good practice to engage in. And so I said, wow, thank you very much.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: I really appreciate that. That’s really kind. I would love to do that. So I went into it. And so her name is Pasha [00:15:00] and she’s in North Carolina and we set up a zoom call and I went into it. It’s funny to think a spiritual healer of resume. Like, how does that work?
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: When I get one little, one little piece of information, I think is powerful.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: You had already decided years ago, some of the meaning of your first step. I problem. Can you share what you had taken to believe of why that happened? Your
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: Odin
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: reference?
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: Oh, wow. Yeah.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: Because that comes into play with the conversation with Pasha. So just for some bigger context of the intricacies in which this spiritual healer validated, you’re already your belief system you already had.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: Yeah. So in, in an effort to make sense of losing the use of my right eye for many years I really struggled. I really worked or [00:16:00] looked into mythology and Jungian archetypes and symbolism. And one of the meanings which I found profound and helpful was the archetype of Odin, the all father, the God of gods in North mythology Thor’s father.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: Any Marvel superhero is pretty familiar with him or any Marvel fan. And what I realized is that Odin went to the tree of life. I think it’s pronounced Yggdrasil. I’m not a hundred percent sure on that. The tree of life is also an Acacia tree, which is interesting because Acacia means immortal. And he sacrificed his right eye in exchange for wisdom.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: He sacrificed vision. For vision for wisdom, vision for insight, and I take that
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: to feel like external vision [00:17:00] for exchange of internal wisdom to see within others. Yeah.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: And that felt like a trade I could make. It was a bargain. I was willing to accept.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: Yeah.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: So
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: now. Yeah. So now yeah it’s a little more emotional than I thought. So I get on the zoom call with Pasha and I didn’t tell her much about me. My name and that I had an eye injury and she knew who sent me. She spoke. for 95 percent of the hour that we were on this call. And everything she said was spot on.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: And a couple of the things she said, we were talking about the eye and she said, yeah, I see like claw marks in the back of your eye. Was someone clawing at you metaphorically to get you to see something or to see differently? I was like yeah, I got to [00:18:00] guess who that is.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: Sorry for that.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: Yeah. And I think that also it was, part of the symbolism, The question I had to ask myself is, what do I need to see differently? What do I need to look at differently? What am I not seeing? What do I need to wake up to? And that was helpful too, just to get more cognitive flexibility, right?
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: Just to be more curious, to be more open minded about what do I need to change? How do I need to perceive things differently?
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: And so I was curious about this, about, I, I went in with an open mind with Pasha. I. After I met with her, I was like, damn it feels like there’s something here this isn’t bullshit. And so I went to you and I told her, what happened. And I said, I think you wanted to see her.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: And I was like, would you see her and just see if we get the same thing. Cause you get a videotape or the recording of the audio
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: recording.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: [00:19:00] Yeah.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: And there was more. She confirmed your belief around Odin. And she also gave you this. spiritual purpose. Yeah.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: Go ahead.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: To those listening that you’re probably thinking this is like such fucking bullshit.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: Yeah. As we said, it gets pretty far out there. So she said something about, I’m on the pot, the path of the shaman, and I’m a guardian of the trees and it cracked me up. She’s yeah, you need to go learn how to talk to the trees. And I was like, That’s going to take me years. I can talk to the trees.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: I really don’t know how to hear the trees very well. And I was just laughing. I was like, how the fuck do I talk to trees? And yeah,
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: this relationship to Odin and wisdom and the trees, like it was [00:20:00] confirmation of something you had already intuitively sent. So to get this person who knew nothing about you to confirm this belief system of this higher power purpose of what you had gone through.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: It was pretty powerful. And when you played the recording for me, cause there was other stuff in there too and personality and you would, I think at one point, A question about our breakup or getting back together and, what could she be or help us with that and some personality things.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: You had me listen to it. And I agree. It was pretty darn spot on. And then I got really intrigued partly because I want to like what can she teach me? What can she tell me? But like you said, it was, is she a one trick pony? Is she going to give the same, script or spiel to anybody?
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: So I soon after contacted her and my session was completely different. And the first thing that she had me do was repeat [00:21:00] my name three times. Which for me was a little bit confusing from the get go, because I’ve had three different legal names. So I’m like, which one do I do? And by calling
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: Kind of gets to that who am I question,
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: doesn’t it?
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: Yeah, absolutely. Am I who I was when I was born? My married name, the legal name that I’ve embraced as who I am since my 40s. But what she’s doing by that is calling in the spiritual team. And she’s bringing in the Well Ancestors as guides to help give the information that she can receive to them, in part to me.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: And Within minutes of me saying my name, one of the very first things she says to me is, Jory, you’ve been carrying a burden since you were three. And I was like, yes, I have. And my session was [00:22:00] completely different than yours. I went on to have a couple of more sessions. One of my sessions with her was helping me reprogram my belief systems starting from one years old.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: And she, this is all over zoom and she had me stand up and she started by asking me questions that I knew the answers to and used my body as a pendulum. And she would ask me a question, is your name Jory? And my body on its own would lean forward. If it was forward, it was yes. If it leaned back, it was no.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: And she said statements in which I had to repeat, I am safe and secure at age one and my body would lean back. Okay. That was a no help. And we would went through every age and reprogram. Like this is really woo shit. She’s in North Carolina, which by the way. He moved to North Carolina from Southern California because she said one day she got a [00:23:00] download from spirit that she’s supposed to move 30 miles outside Asheville, North Carolina.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: So during, and she never been there. And during COVID she says to her husband and teenage daughter or teenage kid. Yeah, so spirit told me we’re supposed to move and they’re like, okay. And they literally. Live. I think she told me 29. 6 miles outside of Asheville. So someone whose family is going to trust her intuition, I’m going to listen to that.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: And part of, I think what we haven’t said yet is the open mindedness to believe in spirituality is going to give you a greater depth of your experience with spirituality.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: I think the other part that enters into this from the science side is A big piece of the research they’ve been doing around psychedelics, in particular psilocybin mushrooms, is they’ve been using the mystical experience [00:24:00] questionnaire to test people pre and post after they go on a journey.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: And what they find is individuals get better overall results mentally, emotionally. The higher they score on this questionnaire and the questionnaire is about things like, did you communicate with a higher power? Did you believe, do you believe in a higher power? Did you feel connected with nature?
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: Did you feel connected with yourself? Did you leave your body? Did you, were you visited by a guide? It’s all these spiritual concepts. And so I think there’s something really beneficial to choosing beliefs that serve you.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: Yeah. So this really opened up this question of you and I going deeper into the spiritual component for healing, not just your eye, but now that we were back together.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: Us. Going deeper to heal [00:25:00] us.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: So you want me to proceed with the next part of the story?
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: Yes.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: One fine afternoon, we were at Jory’s and we had taken mushrooms and the day we were
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: actually guiding another couple through a journey as well.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: And we were in the hot tub and I checked in with Jory to make sure she was good and said, I’ll be right back.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: I need to go talk to the trees. Now, keep in mind that I think mushrooms do, they do help in communication with trees. Full disclaimer. So I go over to talk to, she’s got three giant redwoods in a kind of triangle pattern in her backyard and a hammock is strung up between two of them. And the hammock had previously been chewed through by squirrels.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: And the first one was wrecked by squirrels and we had to throw it out. And was this the second one? I always get that part of the story. The second one. Yeah, the second one which we got in Costa Rica. Yeah. Yeah. On one of our [00:26:00] trips,
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: that’s our new one. The second one I ordered off Amazon, the squirrels ate the second one.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: Okay. So the worst two that they went through. Okay. So it was a pattern. And so I went up to the trees and I put my hand on one of the trees and just started expressing gratitude toward them. Cause I’m, I think it’s cool that they, take CO2 and make oxygen with it so we can live. And. And immediately I looked at the rope with, that was suspending the hammock and it looked like a hangman’s noose to me.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: And I was like, I said to the trees, Oh my God, I am so sorry. We didn’t ask you permission to hang this from you. And I immediately took the hammock down and threw sitting in the hospital
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: and I’m looking over at you. You’re like, what the fuck is he doing? And he was like furious. Like he couldn’t. Get it off the trees fast enough.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: And this was [00:27:00] about two months after Pasha had told you to talk to trees. And part of, if I may be, can we go back to that one piece of it? Part of it was you trying to understand what am I supposed to hear from them? And we had a whole day spending in the Redwood forest where we intentionally Pasha said, go to the forest.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: And we’re like, okay, Pasha said we should go to the forest. We went into the forest and sat amongst the trees and so many of the trees we passed, you just would stop, put your hand up, close your eyes. And what I think you found from that day in the forest of wait, it’s actually not so hard to listen to trees.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: I didn’t, I thought it would take me years and it just puts the intention and the space. And I remember you, yeah, it didn’t take very long. And I remember one of the things you had said from that day in the forest that the trees were trying to teach you with patience. And to me, I took that as patients [00:28:00] for helping us heal, right?
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: Patients for your own healing around your eye, right? Just, it was a very powerful message. So this practice of connecting with the trees while simultaneously was in a, around the time you got the book, the secret life of trees,
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: the hidden life of trees. Yeah. And so I was reading that book, which. It’s pretty mind blowing.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: I can’t believe I was like, I can’t believe I’m reading a book about trees. And it was pretty spectacular. Just the fact that trees can communicate above ground or below ground, they can communicate with one another via pheromones. They can communicate below ground via. Mushroom networks, fungi networks they can
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: speak to the interconnectivity of all things from the right,
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: And they can shunt resources, water, for example, to young trees or sick or old trees. They’re social [00:29:00] creatures. They can ward off predators. by changing the taste of their leaves or injecting poison into their leaves. And the other thing that was interesting about it, because I’m a Lord of the Rings fan, and so I, I’m always amazed at how Tolkien got the Ents so right.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: The tree shepherds, they, they move slow, they talk slow, and Research shows that information moves really slowly through them. An electrical impulse moves slowly. Water moves slowly. So they can respond. They can, I don’t even, I guess to some extent you could say they’re conscious or they feel, but it’s interesting to think of life on their time perspective, on their temporal perspective, that, many of these trees have been here hundreds of years, if not over a thousand years.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: And what have they seen and what have they withstood? And, the messages I would get from them were things like patience, [00:30:00] strength, resiliency, temperance, moderation so anyways, to go circle back to the Redwoods yeah, one of the things I told you, I told the Redwoods after I furiously got the hammock off of them.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: I said, listen, next time we put up a hammock, we’ll be sure to ask your permission. We won’t put anything up until we ask your permission. And it was about a
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: month later, we were in Costa Rica and
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: I bought a new hammock.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: Yeah.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: And we went and asked permission. We made a little ritual.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: Yeah.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: Yeah. Put it up and no squirrels have ever gone after it.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: Not yet. I don’t think they will. I actually, I truly believe the squirrels were in defense of the trees. I
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: think so too.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: Yeah.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: You can interpret that any way you want. And that’s pretty, okay yeah, whatever. Like maybe John’s insane. Maybe he’s way out there. I don’t know. He’s giving too much
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: mushrooms.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: Yeah.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: Then the [00:31:00] next thing happened and this kind of solidified it for me.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: And this was now about a month later, just to give context. So none of these, he happened all that far apart in time, but with now the middle of summer.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: This was insane. This was unlike anything I’d experienced ever. And I remember I had slept over your house and I got up early with the dogs.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: And so I brought him out back and I was out back drinking a cup of coffee and trying to keep the dogs quiet. And you came out and pretty quickly you were like, what’s that in the pool? And I was like, I don’t know. I saw
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: water splashing from the edge of the pool. And as we slowly walk over on that first step was a baby owl stuck in the water, furiously flapping, trying to get out, but was stuck.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: Owls are not water. The wings can’t hand. Yeah. And [00:32:00] so it was, the wings were drowned down. And this little baby owl was trying to. Trying to get out and was waterlogged,
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: terrified, exhausted.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: And it appears as though what we can make sense of is it was in the tree above that part of the pool and it just fell out of the tree.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: I like to think the tree dropped it in the pool.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: Okay, good idea.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: That might be a bit of a stretch,
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: I said to Jordi, go get a dish towel and she ran and got it and I scooped him up out of the pool because their claws are incredibly sharp. And this was a fledgling great horned owl and we put it on the concrete and he hopped over to the fence and then just stood there shivering and couldn’t fly.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: And I said, go get a couple of dry towels. And so with a dry towel. I scooped him up, I don’t know how else to put it, but I swaddled him in two towels in an effort to dry him off. [00:33:00]
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: To give context, this owl pretty much fit into the size of the palm of your hands. It was maybe four or five inches tall, maybe three inches wide.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: At first it’s eyes were closed, completely waterlogged and our instinct was to take it to the wildlife museum so it can be rehabilitated. Yeah. But they weren’t opened yet. This was like eight in the morning on a Saturday. And we sat there just on the lounge chair that morning cradling and drying off the owl.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: And it was interesting because it seemed to me that he slowly or she slowly began to trust us.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: Like at first she
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: was just terrified and over time it seemed like there was some realization that, oh, these. Things are trying to help me. And she relaxed into it.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: And she started to open her eyes and at this point we were able just to pet her feathers and create [00:34:00] actual touch and not just through the towels.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: And this is hilarious because then there was some construction happening in the house behind me and we’re like, oh, it’s getting loud. She might be scared. So we had the thought to bring her inside the house and now we’re sitting on my couch holding the baby owl. And at one point she flies out of my hand and I actually looked up the spiritual meaning of an owl flying in your house and that had really good luck.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: Oh, I was comforted by the whole thing. So we then took her to a different part of the yard and by this point it had been almost two hours. She was beginning to dry off and now she would just freely sitting on you
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: on my hand with towel between us.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: Yeah.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: And so at one point she started to try and fly and couldn’t fly yet, but sat, flew down to the bottom of the fence and was sitting on the bottom of the fence.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: And so I just asked her, [00:35:00] Hey, can I pet you? And I don’t know what she heard, but I reached my finger down and pet the back of her neck. And she just allowed me to do that.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: Yeah, this was powerful. This felt like a spiritual experience. And we knew that in the moment, this wasn’t just Oh, we’re rescuing the random animal.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: This felt like the continuation of connection with the trees, the interconnectivity of all things back to you being the guardian of the trees of giving up your eyesight for wisdom. This was a continued theme. That we were now being given this gift. It was like, we felt chosen by her and she hopped along down the fence line and still didn’t seem to move.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: So she was dried off, but still unable to really take flight. So then I remember you pulled a chair over and just sat and just watched her for probably another 20 minutes. Yeah. And at this [00:36:00] point we gave her a name now, we’re connecting with the owl and we named her Athena, goddess of wisdom.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: And so then you realize you needed to help her to get back up into the tree, which where she started or where we think she started from.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: Yeah. Yeah. And so again, I asked her permission, can I pick you up and put you in the tree? And here’s where it got really. The whole thing was profound, but this is where it got incredible and hard to believe to me is I went down to scoop her up with a dish towel and she didn’t bat a wing.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: She did not even take a step away from me. She just allowed me to pick her up.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: That’s a
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: wild owl
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: that we
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: got to spend, two and a half hours with, who I believe learned to trust us.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: And so
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: I picked her up and put her on a low branch in the tree. And then 20 minutes later she flew away. And then
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: you had a session with the
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: pod.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: Go to the spiritual [00:37:00] symbolism of what we remember of owls, wisdom, protection from dark energy. They can go, they can see at night. So they are, they walk between worlds
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: also their ability to rotate so they can see all around them.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: Yeah. Two 70 degrees, 270. So great vision, great insight. And yeah, so then I had.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: a session with Pasha, I don’t know, a week later, maybe. And I told her about this and she was psyched. She was like, Oh my God. She’s feather magic is so powerful. She’s now all the owls know what you’ve done and they’re all looking out for you in the area. Now, I don’t know what the truth is. I don’t know what the reality is.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: I do know. I like to pick the interpretation that serves me best. And I like that interpretation
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: That there’s owls around us because every time I hear owls now, I’m comforted. [00:38:00]
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: Yeah and I have a perimeter of trees surrounding my property. And since then, I have felt very protected on this land.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: And I had never before understood the impact of safe. Interesting land. And as you and I had done more research into psychedelic and psychedelic healing and energies. And when you open yourself up to different realm, there’s some dark energy, right? There’s dark energy that can come in unbeknownst. To someone who is entering into healing, if the land is not safe, or if it has had trauma on the land, that can be really harmful and create some, real spiritual what’s the phrase, spiritual emergence, right?
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: Where you can have some very dark things enter into your consciousness as a result of going on a [00:39:00] journey. And so I never before had understood the power of safe and protected land. And with our owl, I felt very protected and I’ve always heard owls in my neighborhood and I live up against open space and there’s a lot of wildlife around here and I’ve tuned into the owls for years and in fact it’s been one of my mindfulness practices when I can’t sleep sometimes, I’ll tune into the sound of the owl, which I often hear at night, and I really pay attention I can hear one in the distance.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: And they’re like having a conversation. So if my mind has been wandering, it’s always been a practice to tune into the foreground and the background of the sound of the Alice. I’ve always known they’ve been around. And once before we had seen some up in the tree, we had friends over and one of them spotted on a totally different part of the property, but so we know they’re there.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: And I was really curious with the question of, would we [00:40:00] ever see it again? And a couple of weeks later, it was desk. I was out in my backyard with my daughter. She was in the pool and from the Redwood tree where the hammock is. I heard a sound and this was interesting because when we caught, when we rescued her out of the pool, the owl made a clicking sound.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: It wasn’t a hoot.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: It was a surprising sound.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: It was clicking from what I can recall. Yeah. And I don’t, it was like a cry. It was strange. Yeah. But it was a very specific sound and I think I actually have it on video cause I got the rescue on video. So I’m sitting in the pool with my daughter. And I hear that sound, and I’ll never forget.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: I was actually on the phone with my mom at the time, and I immediately hung up. I’m like, Oh my God, the owl’s here. I hung up the phone, and I saw an owl fly from the redwood to the tree above the pool. And even though it was dusk, I [00:41:00] got close enough and I zoomed in. And I’m like, that’s it. That’s our owl.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: She’s back. She’s here. And Pasha said that they stay in the same neighborhood for 30 years. So the amount of comfort I had in that moment of this exhale, there she is. We’re protected. She’s watching over it.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: And it really brought up this whole, I talk a lot about primal world beliefs.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: And, do you, to what extent do you see the world as safe versus dangerous or alive versus mechanistic or, kind versus uncaring. And this whole, these stories bring up some of these world beliefs for me in the sense of what is a more, what is a more pleasant, awe invoking, comforting place or world to live in one that is dead and mechanistic [00:42:00] or one that is alive where everything is interconnected
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: and pregnant with meaning. And to me, there’s no contest.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: Absolutely.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: I’d rather live in a world where things are alive and have meaning and can communicate and have some sentience.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: So this whole experience, it’s awe inspiring as it was for me was one of the ways that I found comfort in the mystical regarding our own healing of our relationship, that there were things that we needed to clear that we weren’t seeing clearly both in ourselves and with each other.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: And this, the spiritual experience with Pasha, with the psilocybin, with the owl, for me was a reminder of keep staying open, keep looking. [00:43:00] What is the part I can’t see? What is the, not just the lesson I’m here to learn, but now it’s time to apply that lesson into practice. Let me get out of my own way. Look at the bigger picture.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: Look for the interconnectivity. Look for those blockages and the more we keep doing that, the more vulnerable we keep getting to look at our own selves, to look at our own shit, to reveal that dark place.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: And the stronger our connection gets.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: It gets stronger and stronger.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: And yeah, I think one of the questions is, what am I not seeing?
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: Where are my blind spots? And that’s been one that’s driven me, I don’t know, for, I guess 2023, maybe that’s why 2023 was damn painful. Oh, there’s somewhere else I was going to go with that. Oh the other thing that is interesting just in terms of a selling point for vulnerability was an [00:44:00] article I was reading this morning about friendship and how research shows that it takes about 30 to 40 hours to go from an acquaintance to a friend to move that relationship forward to friend status.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: And it takes about 150 to 200 hours to go from friend to best friend. Or really close friend and, I guess that’s good perspective for some people. It might be like, wow, that’s a lot of work or, that’s a lot of time. And here’s the thing that kind of blew me away. And I think this is a incredibly important point.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: They found that when we are vulnerable, when we share something that is difficult for us or a challenge or where we’ve fallen down or how we feel or are in better internal state or internal landscape. It collapses that [00:45:00] time frame from 200 hours to 45 minutes.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: That is wild.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: Let that sink in. And I see this recently I, since Brett passed away, I’ve been very open about that with people, including even some strangers.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: And met a young man at 24 Hour Fitness who works at the front desk. Great young man, Shamar. And I told him this. I barely knew him. And he was awesome. He was like, yeah, man, I’ve had a lot of loss to, best to stay present, keep breathing, keep moving forward, which was really good. I think he’s like 21.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: And that just started conversations between the two of us. And then he told me something vulnerable from his side. I really liked this kid. And it was that vulnerability that formed this connection quickly. And that just fascinates the hell out of it. Because we’re socialized to [00:46:00] not be vulnerable, to not share that stuff, especially men.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: And yet, what if that’s exactly what’s getting in the way of this epidemic of loneliness or causing, or one of the causes, I guess there’s many, of this epidemic of loneliness.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: And how many couples are lonely in their partnership? Yeah.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: I would venture to say the majority of them and you know that vulnerability piece really also confirmed for Nate Brown’s work around her research on vulnerability to sum that up vulnerability breeds connection.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: And, you and I’ve been doing a couple of Instagram lives in support of our upcoming masterclass series and one of the things we talked about recently was what you’ve been reading about. Ongoing, understanding of how men and women are socialized differently. And that, men are socialized to be autonomous and independent and women are socialized as more caregivers.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: So you [00:47:00] get this chasing dynamic where the men are driving more independent. They’re not just
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: caregivers. They’re socialized to be relational.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: Relational.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: That it’s all about interconnection and really men are socialized for disconnection, which is tragic.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: Yeah. That autonomy. That, I can do it on my own.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: They’re socialized for self reliance,
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: independence, competitiveness. I don’t need anybody, which is a tragic, terrible lie to tell yourself. It’s completely untrue. Everyone stands on the shoulders of giants. And if you’re not recognizing that, there’s a problem we got to talk about.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: And when we look at the couples that we work with, whether it’s our individual clients or the couples that are coming in to, receive support together, it’s really scary and really hard to [00:48:00] begin.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: To be vulnerable because that would require a self awareness of what you’re even feeling, then the language to identify it, then the courage to communicate it, then the ability for the other person to receive it openly, open heartedly, open mindedness. Non defensive. There are layers and layers of being able to receive someone else’s emotions, truth, feelings, fears, need.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: Yeah. I think you got to learn to be comfortable with the uncomfortable because a lot of vulnerability is going to reveal some uncomfortable shit.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: Yeah.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: And one of Shamar’s response was he just rolled with it. Yeah.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: Yeah.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: And. It was really quite helpful to me.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: Yeah.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: And I keep telling people that, they were like, Oh, I’m, I’m not [00:49:00] sure I know what to say.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: And I’m like, look, there’s nothing you can say. And I really appreciate just simply you’re listening, you’re witnessing my grief, you asking.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: Yeah.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: But there’s nothing you can say. And that’s not. That’s not on you. That’s just the situation.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: It would be amazing how many more people would feel connected if they either a allowed themselves to be witnessed because sometimes we just fold up that shield or protection around us or how much they were to offer the opportunity to witness somebody else.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: Because as we know with grief, just bearing witness, that’s really what compassion is. It’s just to sit with. There is very little that we can do to solve what goes on in our lives and in our world and. Just to have the sense of I seen you is so healing and I think for me that was a big piece of looping it back with.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: My personal work with Pasha [00:50:00] was I felt so seen by her in my experience since childhood. And I know for me, when I feel unseen, I am disconnected in that relationship that, goes hand in hand for me around authenticity of when I feel most connected is when I’m seen. And that’s really hard.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: And yet there’s a variety of ways to access that ability. And I think that’s something that you and I are really passionate about right now. This is, a new big area of the work that we’re offering to others is this joint work for couples to do the inner work and the relational work, because there is great couple therapy out there.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: The Gottman’s all research based, Harry real, amazing
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: Sue Johnson
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: yet, Oh, incredible. If we take some of the basic tools that the Gottman’s teach of love, max, which is getting [00:51:00] to know each other in the here and now, or a gratitude and appreciation, culture, understanding when someone is wanting to connect and how to respond positively to those bits for attention or a Terry reels ability to be relational.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: Oh, that’s amazing. But if you don’t have the self awareness. To understand what’s going on inside of you, where you’re stuck, what you’re feeling, what your wounds are from your childhood, from previous relationships. What your narratives. One of my favorite questions is what’s the story you’re telling yourself right now.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: Like, where are you not allowing yourself to be open. So all those tools are hard to get to until you do that own inner work.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: Yeah. And one of the things as you were talking, I was thinking emotional regulation.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: I don’t think the majority
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: of people out there can regulate their emotions well enough to not be triggered in the heat of the moment.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: And then we get emotionally flooded, we [00:52:00] get reactive, you start saying stupid shit. You never, I always, just stuff that’s not true. And and that’s, I would argue that’s my work.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: If I
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: can’t regulate my emotions that’s something I need to put work into.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: Yeah. And it’s also the
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: basis of, philippe Golden at Stanford argues that emotional management is one of the, if not the pillar of a happy life.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: And I think there’s a lot of merit to that.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: Yeah. And having this basis of this more open mindedness has allowed us to get out of our own way to see the bigger picture. for our relationship, for our own inner healing and relational healing. And it’s ongoing. This is never one and done work. And, but it’s creating the space to allow for it.[00:53:00]
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: Yeah. And I think this just came to mind. I’m not sure it’s a little tangential, but I’m a really big fan of Antonio Damasio’s work. He’s a leading neuroscientist and researcher. And his quote that I love is We are not thinking machines that feel, we are feeling machines that think. In other words, emotions are primacy or primate, the more powerful, the more quicker.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: And I think the more we can begin to wrap our heads and hearts around that notion, the more we can give ourselves permission to feel, the more we can be curious about what we feel, the better we get at putting labels on those feeling states and getting more comfortable in talking about them without shame or embarrassment.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: That’s a lot of work right there.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: Yeah. It’s not for the faint of heart because it’s going to bring up a lot to recognize what are my barriers [00:54:00] to my, even my own feelings. And I was just going to say one of the things, I’ve been someone who have always felt deeply and yet, and just now it just turned 46 years old, learning to tap into some of those emotions.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: And you’ve been a big proponent and contributor to me getting tapped into my anger, and it’s been a very powerful experience for me to be in a space that let myself feel that and not be afraid of it, because I think I was always so afraid of my own emotions as being the thing to disconnect me from others.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: If I express my sadness or my anger, it’s going to push people away.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: But can I pause you there for a second? Cause I, it’s interesting going back to Carol Gilligan’s work of women are socialized to be connected, to value the relationship or relationships above all else, even self. And that’s [00:55:00] exactly what you were doing.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: The relationship was more important in your framework. Then feeling your own emotions
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: and yet by not allowing my emotions to be felt actually let me to have very unfulfilling relationship So there was like negative spiral to it, because I wasn’t being fully authentic in my own truth let alone to the truth of the other and so I then never felt seen because it was my story of if I reveal myself and I’ll be rejected
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: and Also, you never felt seen because you never shared your whole self.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: Yes Yeah. And learning to be okay with all of my emotions, even when they’re uncomfortable, and to allow myself to reveal them vulnerably is a huge piece of where I have felt safe with you. At times, it hasn’t always looked pretty, it’s been [00:56:00] hard, but I think I’m still a work in progress too.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: Thank God, because we both are, but that’s where repair comes in and coming back and reconnecting. But it’s been also powerful to be role models to our three girls. And teaching them this emotional expression. And I feel compelled to share. So it was just my birthday a couple of days ago. And what I wanted to do on my birthday was go to the smash room.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: And which
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: is,
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: A room we live near San Francisco and you get 30 minutes in a room of. Oh, all plywood, everything in there and you’re given protective gear of a helmet and full like face goggles, like this whole protective mask over your whole face and gloves. And yeah.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: And
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: you got to break shit. And they I brought in ceramic laptops.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: They had, a microwave in their [00:57:00] beakers, a big fan. They had a whole box full of ceramic ramekin. They had sledgehammers and metal baseball bats. And we made a smash room playlist and me and you and my two daughters and your daughter, the five of us went, and it was an amazing experience. And so bonding, so much fun, but to get out that emotion and a permissible.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: Environment and, to play music that pumped us up to get it out and be
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: angry music.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: Yeah. And walked out of there just feeling empowered. And then we were able to laugh and the emis, although it was tiring, we were sweating in there and it was a workout thing. It was exhausting, which made bowling afterward really tiring, but super fun.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: And I remember my daughter, my oldest daughter posted it on her story of us at all this mastermind. One of [00:58:00] her friends was like, that’s what your mom wanted to do on her birthday. And my daughter was like, yeah, it was her idea. And her friend’s that’s fucking awesome. And I don’t know many people who are teaching their young adult children to get in touch with their emotions this way.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: And, even just you and I sharing our spiritual journey with our kids is giving them. At 18 and 20 years old, another lens through which to see themselves, their relationships, the world around them, to help make sense of what we can’t seem to make sense of, to validate their own experience and only want to be in relationship, whether romantic or friendship with others who can give that permission.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: It’s really powerful what we’ve gone through. Our entire relationship has been a huge growth for me, but specifically as, as hard as 2023 was. It was the most powerful year like really propelling us into [00:59:00] massive growth and healing and the deepest connection we’ve ever felt.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: Yeah, I think it really slingshotted us to next level of evolution.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: Yeah. And, to wrap this up because part of the purpose of all this storytelling is I think that reminder to stay open minded, to stay curious. To stay open to the interconnectivity, all things. You don’t have to keep learning. You don’t have to be on psilocybin or talking to spiritual healers to look for that interconnectivity, to be open to it, to ask the question, what am I here to learn?
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: What’s another lens I need to look through? What am I not seeing? What are the barriers in my own way to connection with myself or with the people important to me?
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: There was a quote that I love and it’s by a rabbi whose name I forget. But it’s life is routine and routine is resistant to wonder. So if you [01:00:00] want to wake up, if you want to experience more positive emotions like wonder, you got to get out of the routine.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: You got to get out of the mindlessness. You got to stop being an automaton.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: I love that quote. So if any of this is inspiring to you, then john and I invite you to join us in a journey of self insight, relational insight, growth awareness. We are starting a monthly masterclass series based on a framework that we’ve come up with called the aware method.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: Aware is an acronym for how to truly wake up to what’s going on inside you, what’s going on around you relationally, and to begin to be more curious about the blockages of your own inner work that are preventing you from connecting with others and connecting with others. All relationships, but most specifically, romantic [01:01:00] partnerships where we say, this is the most important person in my life.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: This is the most important relationship. And for many people, those relationships are left. I’m wanting connection, wanting vulnerability, wanting authenticity, wanting more fun, more playfulness. And then it’s all possible when we do the work and it doesn’t have to be. Dredging through the mud. It might bring up hard stuff, but you can start small, but a lot of the tools that we’re going to be teaching and be able to create huge shifts.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: And where can they find out more about that?
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: So in the show notes, you will find a link to the aware method course, and we are starting our first master class on Tuesday, January 9th. So just if you’re listening to this live, it’ll have just coming out the next day, but they will be recorded. You’ll be able to retroactively access them.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: If you sign up after the fact. And you can sign [01:02:00] up for the whole year, all 12 or each one individually. If you go to my website, joryrose. com under events, you will see the aware method masterclass series, you can find it there and it lists out January through December, all the different topics that we’re doing.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: And this is really our intention to build greater community around working with people who questioning whether or not they want to stay together. This is for the couples who. Know that they want to be together, but just want to get to that next level of their relationship who are committed to doing the work, knowing that it’s going to take them to that next place.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: And we happen to see a lot of couples at this turning point around when their kids are launching, because it left, it leaves a couple’s asking, Okay what about us now? Now what? We’ve done that child raising thing. Now what? I love you. What about this relationship
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: that we’ve neglected for 18 [01:03:00] years?
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: Or more. And, or, I don’t know who you are anymore. I, or I’ve not paid attention to myself, let alone you. This is really for couples who have a deeper desire. For connection for more placefulness and fun, vulnerability, self awareness, relational awareness, tools for repair and healing mindfulness, being able to stay more present.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: So we’re pretty excited about this and this is,
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: there’s anger management, there’s positive psychology there’s all sorts of great stuff in there. And the other couple that I could see this being applicable for a really useful for is One of the dynamics that we frequently see and forgive me for the stereotype here, but a wife who is interested in growth and a husband who is on the fence about it and maybe a little bit gun shy to go in to see someone.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: This is a good way to dip your toe in the water to begin to learn more about the tools. [01:04:00] In a safe, even anonymous way, if you want,
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: Cause you can not show up on a live zoom call and do this on your own time. We’re going to have exercises as like homework assignments are or show up
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: and not do the video.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: Your camera’s off.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: Our whole intention is to get couples to be more connected. Without connection we’re walking side by side, we’re zombies through our life. We’re not awake. And I see way too many people missing out on what’s right in front of them because they maybe haven’t been taught or they haven’t been ready or they haven’t had the time to dedicate to themselves and their relationships.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: And this will also culminate, two thirds way through the year with our retreat in Costa Rica, which is going to be all of this in practice in person, and then some with amazing excursions and great food and great spa treatments and great [01:05:00] community. So we really, oh we really, invite you to join in.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: This is an invitation for growth. This is an invitation for insight, for connection and. We’ve gotten here through some very spiritual ways like the owls and Sasha and talking to trees and It doesn’t always have to be that Lulu for it to be powerful And if you’re open to that, we could help with that too.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: And there’s a variety of ways, you know I like to think of it as different doors into the same room. So thank you guys so much for tuning in we really appreciate you listening and sharing our journey with us. We have found that these joint episodes really seem to inspire a lot and get a lot of feedback.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: So if this spoke to you, we would really value a review, a rating, a share so we can help others journey forward to becoming more evolved cavemen and cavewomen and ultimately have a relationship that [01:06:00] they feel safe, secure, connected, alive. Thanks so much for tuning in.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: Thanks so much for listening guys.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: Until next time, this is Dr. John and Jory.
Joree Rose, Couples Therapist: Be well.
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