How To Argue Effectively With Your Loved One

Let’s face it: couples argue. Disagreements are inevitable. Arguing itself is not the problem; in fact, there’s a lot of authenticity & freedom in being able to express yourself fully, even when you’re angry. The problem is when arguing is ineffective, or when anger & insults erode the safety & security of your relationship. However, there are proven ways that you can argue better; ways that actually benefit your partnership. Learn the scientifically-proven rules to fight fair, argue well, repair quickly & ultimately resolve those long-standing disagreements with top marriage therapists Dr. John Schinnerer & Joree Rose, LMFT.

If you’d like to listen to this episode on Apple Podcasts, click here.

If you’d rather read through the discussion, the transcript has been provided you below.

Argue More Effectively With Your Loved One Transcript

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples counselor: [00:00:00] Hi, this is Dr. John Schinnerer, and I’m here with my partner in life and love, Jory Rose, and we’re here to talk today about effective arguing in relationships. 

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: This is something that we see so many couples struggle with, is in not knowing how to argue effectively, how to understand the emotion of anger.

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: And how to actually not have their anger or arguing continue to cause rupture in the relationship. So should I get started with the slides? So we’ve got a lot of slides to share with you. And in this next hour, I, we really hope that you be open minded to understanding, arguing in and of itself, isn’t a bad thing.

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: And that’s really what I want to hope you take away from this, because if you can learn to do it in a way that expresses your authenticity, Doing your own self work, taking radical accountability of your emotions, what your needs are. There is a way this can actually strengthen your relationship, which sounds really counterintuitive.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples counselor: And that’s really a key point, I think, is to [00:01:00] take radical accountability for your own anger, for your own emotions, for your own part in this drama, in this play, in this dynamic. 

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: Yeah. All right, so we’ve got a lot to share with you. If you are someone who likes to take notes, I highly recommend you begin to get a piece of paper, maybe hit pause because there’s going to be a lot of really great content that we know is going to be valuable to you in your relationship.

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: So jumping right in, we’re going to go over some myths. That are common phrases that we hear clients say, and I think we’ve even gotten stuff. Oh yeah, 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples counselor: for sure. And then one of the biggest ones is we think arguing is about being right. And I think this stems from our competitive nature, especially as men where we want to be right.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples counselor: We want to win an argument and arguing is not about winning or losing. It’s about making sure that your partner feels heard. I like Terry real statement of would you rather be right? Or would you rather be married? 

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: [00:02:00] Yeah. You want to be right or stay connected, right? It’s gets in our way. So another myth is that healthy couples don’t argue.

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: And I actually used to believe this because I was really afraid of anger. I was afraid of arguing. It’s not something I grew up with. So I, it really was dysregulating to me. And I used to have this belief. If we loved each other, we just wouldn’t argue. It would be easy. Being easy and not arguing doesn’t actually mean you’re connected.

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: There’s a lot of layers underneath that. So this is a myth. People who love each other very deeply still argue, and that’s okay. 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples counselor: Another myth that we come across is when we finally discover the key to unlock that big argument that we always have, we’ll be good. There won’t be any more arguing. And arguing is just a part and parcel of being in relationship with someone that you love.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples counselor: It’s inevitable. The arguing itself is not a problem. How you argue might be. 

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: And 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples counselor: how you repair, how quickly you repair after a disconnection is critical. 

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: And we’ll talk about this a little bit later on, but I know [00:03:00] I. I fell victim to all of these myths really big. I also knew that I thought Oh, if we just fix this one thing, then everything else will be easy.

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: But you guys, we’re going to constantly get triggered. And if you’ve been listening to any of our videos or our podcast episodes are a part of our masterclass series, you’ll know that your triggers aren’t always about your partner, right? So it could be from your past, your childhood, previous relationships as human, emotional beings.

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: We are going to have constant new things that are going to potentially upset us. So it’s never a one and done. 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples counselor: I’m going to skip to the men are more logical than women, and women are more emotional. That’s a very deep myth that we have in our society, and it’s absolutely bullshit. I really have to put a fine point on that, an exclamation point, because it is absolutely untrue.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples counselor: There’s research that shows that male babies, male neonates, are actually more emotional than female [00:04:00] neonates, 

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: neonates. You make it sound like we’re martians, 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples counselor: but I think we need to get past this myth. Men are emotional. Women are emotional. Men can be logical. Women can be logical. And when we get into a disagreement.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples counselor: Odds are we’re both getting triggered at some point. Our heart rates are going above 100 beats per minute, and we’re getting emotionally flooded, and we’re worthless at that point. Nothing you say at that point in an argument is going to get through to your partner. You’re not hearing them. You’re only externalizing blame.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples counselor: You’re only trying to be heard and not to hear. And that’s the point at which we have to learn to take a timeout. Take 20 minutes out, think about something else, calm our physiology, and return later to speak to this issue rationally, truly. 

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: And if you, if, I often explain this, but to give a really quick piece of this, we’ve got our emotional brain in the center part of our brain, and we’ve got our executive functioning in our prefrontal cortex, which is our emo [00:05:00] part of our brain.

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: There are different parts of the brain. So we all have an emotional brain and we all have a logical brain. The problem is when our emotions take over, it cuts off access to that executive function, to that logic, reason, rationality, communication. So what John just said is really important, which we’ll talk about further is understanding what’s going on inside of you so that.

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: When that emotional brain is activated, you aren’t saying things you don’t mean causing disconnection that might cause bigger repairs and ruptures than the initial argument. Finally, this last one, a myth that uncomfortable emotions should be avoided or suppressed. Not true. All emotions are normal.

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: I don’t even call them negative emotion. I call them all natural emotions. So this part might be a really interesting opportunity for you to pause for a moment and think about. In your family of origin growing up, what was the culture of emotional expression in your family? Did you only be told you could be around or your parents liked you more when you were happier, in a good mood, and therefore you really felt that [00:06:00] any negative emotion might be caused for rejection or dismissal of, opportunity to be part of the family unit if they didn’t want you around if you were in a bad mood.

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: So understanding your initial experience. And culture around emotions, I think is an important thing to take note of. And 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples counselor: there’s another point here that this begins to speak to meta emotion or the feelings that we have about feelings or the belief that we have about feelings or emotions. And this is coming out more and more in recent research as critical in this area of arguing effectively.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples counselor: Because think about what are some of the beliefs that you have about emotion, typically from your family of origin. In other words, Things like anger is destructive or if this person loves me, they should respond to my passion and argument with equal passion. Or I’ve even heard some clients tell me that love is anger so that if you’re not getting angry in response to my angry, you don’t love me.

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: Which seems like the complete opposite of that first one. Anger is not allowed. So everyone’s really going to have a different experience [00:07:00] and worldview. Yeah. All right. So one of the things we mentioned the very beginning is one of the ways to begin to argue more effectively is take radical accountability for yourself and your emotions.

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: So for someone who doesn’t know what that means, it’s really easy. If I’m feeling triggered that I’m going to blame him. It’s all his fault that I’m angry. Now, maybe something he did made me angry, but my emotions are my responsibility. So you want to maybe talk more about some of these. 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples counselor: Yeah, I talk a lot about anger and one of the fundamental dynamics of anger is when I’m really angry with her.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples counselor: Everything is her fault. And the extension of that is, it completes me cut it completely cuts me off from introspection and taking my part from my story. Taking responsibility for my part, which means that I’m never going to grow. I’m never going to change my behaviors or patterns if I’m constantly blaming her for everything that’s going wrong.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples counselor: And yet that’s a fundamental underlying dynamic of anger. So we got to look at this and say, we’re [00:08:00] having this argument over and over again. What am I doing? That’s not making this better. What do I need to change? How can I look at things differently? How can I work on keeping myself calm self soothing?

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples counselor: There’s a number of things we can do. But one of the key factors that we see in couples that are arguing incessantly is their They’re terrible at externalizing blame, and it just sticks us in the mud. 

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: It’s if only you didn’t do that, I’d be fine. And I always like to say all relationships is a co creation, even if your partner is tactfully like doing a lot of negative things, how you’re responding, how you’re engaging and how you’re communicating about it is adding fuel to the fire.

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: So there’s always a co creation occurring. And if we are not looking inward. Then we’re actually not actually making any change.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples counselor: And one of the other big no’s is no name calling, no criticism when you’re getting hot or actually at any time. But, just to give you a quick example we love the dishwasher example, but [00:09:00] what we would like to see is if your loved one hasn’t emptied the dishwasher when they said they would, you can speak to that behavior.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples counselor: Hey, honey, you said you were going to empty the dishwasher today. It’s now 9 PM. When are you going to get to that versus that would be 

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: effective 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples counselor: right versus criticism, which is man, you know You said you’re going to empty the dishwasher. You’re so lazy You never empty the dishwasher when you said you’re going to that’s a criticism when i’m speaking to the whole of the person you’re lazy That’s a criticism and It’s a cognitive error.

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: And it’s partly when you’re starting to attack character versus the behavior right in front of you. So this is a really big one. And I see this a lot with the couples I work with is it goes to character attacks partly because, and we’ll talk about this further too, that resentments build and build.

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: So now they’re creating a story in their head. Then they’re actually believing. So it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy at some point in these dynamics also, because we’re not repairing the small paper cuts. From previous. So now we [00:10:00] really are full on kitchen 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples counselor: sinking. And by the way, when you start to criticize someone like that.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples counselor: The odds are they’re not going to do what you wanted them to do in the first place, because they’re going to dig their heels in and be resistant to that criticism. 

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: Yeah, it’s actually going to continue the behavior you don’t want them to keep doing, which is that irony in understanding how to be more effective in this.

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: So to quickly go through these, some of these, if you’re familiar with John and Julie Gottman’s work, some of these are the four horsemen of the apocalypse, which we do talk about later on, but defensiveness. This is one thing that John and I’ve really worked hard at doing when we are disconnected or in an argument.

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: Is to not be defensive when the other person’s expressing themselves 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples counselor: and defensiveness is any time I’m defending what I did or what I said by explaining myself is defensiveness. So that could be me in anger doing that, but it could also be me calmly doing that. And the goal in any of these arguments is really listening to your partner’s emotion, underlying their words.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples counselor: First and foremost, so validate what they’re feeling. And then perhaps [00:11:00] later you can go back and explain, Hey, this is what I was thinking. I didn’t really mean to hurt your feelings. 

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: There’s so much more we can say about this, but I’ll keep moving on stone mauling is when the other person just shuts down and it’s literally like you’re talking to a wall.

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: That’s really harmful. Yeah, it was horrible. And it’s leads into avoidant behaviors and the more accountability he took for his own experience and his own co creation of the dynamic that stonewalling really went away. So thank you for that because that has really shifted. 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples counselor: Another one is contempt and contempt is when we look at ourselves as superior in some way to our partner and contempt can often show up as sarcasm, put downs, eye rolls, sighing, and it’s a very damaging emotion to show up in relationships.

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: So we talked a mention a minute ago about incomplete arguments from the past. And so if we, again, start kitchen sinking, and now we’re not just bringing up the dishwasher, we’re talking about everything this person has ever done to hurt you, not going to be effective. 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples counselor: And emotional flooding is what I mentioned [00:12:00] earlier, when our heart rate goes above 100 beats per minute, we’re then thinking and responding from our emotional mind, not our rational mind.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples counselor: And no good is going to come of that. So we got to calm down first. before we can proceed with effective arguing. 

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: In all this work that John and I are doing, we are really looking at this interplay of your own self work, of what’s going on inside of you, accumulation of your past, of how it’s affected your present, your previous relationships, your childhood, your emotional state, how you regulate.

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: As well as the relational work, doing the work with your partner and, looking at this unresolved emotional issues from our past relationships. That’s a part of the self work, but if you don’t look at that, it’s going to be projected onto your current relationship. And this was something that it took us years to actually understand.

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: And once we did, it was extremely helpful because we could recognize. Oh, wait a second. Like I’m getting triggered from something from my ex or from my mother. It’s coming out in reaction to you, but it’s actually not about you. But that’s [00:13:00] my own work and my responsibility to be curious about, to begin to heal so that I can be fully present.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples counselor: And typically we have no awareness that we’re even doing this. Yeah. It’s so convincing that I’m angry at her and if she would just stop being a fill in the blank, I wouldn’t be so angry. It’s an illusion most of the time. Yeah. So we got to get past that illusion. 

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: So the do your own damn work, this is the self part of that interplay.

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: If you’re only relying on your partner to change, you’re going to stay disconnected. All right. So we talked about the myths. We’ve talked about some of the things that we see common happening now. Let’s go to some solutions. 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples counselor: Yeah. And one of the things that’s come out of research recently with the Gottman’s is the first three minutes of an argument are incredibly powerful and important because not only they determine how the argument is likely to go, but they also show how your relationship is likely to go six years later, and they can tell with 90 percent [00:14:00] accuracy.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples counselor: Okay. watching the first three minutes of your argument, whether or not you’re going to be together in six years. 

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: Yeah. That’s wild to me. And the other four horsemen, as we mentioned in the previous few minutes was contempt, criticism, defensiveness, and stonewalling. Again, they have accuracy. And when they see that in couples, the prediction of divorce.

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: And so one of the ways that we can begin to shift the way that we’re talking with our partners during an argument is how we’re approaching. So I want to give a couple of examples because sometimes when you’re arguing things might come, in the hot minute and you’re just going to blurt out how you’re feeling.

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: Other times there’s an argument can stem from something you actually have on your mind that you want to be talking about that you want to repair and share how I’m feeling. So especially for those moments in which you have something important, you’re wanting to share. It’s really valuable if you create the space for an intentional conversation with your partner, knowing you have something you want to talk about.

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: If I had been something [00:15:00] That’s something on my mind all day and John walks in and I just blurted out, he’s going to have no awareness what’s coming he’s going to have no ability to prepare or to even get his mind and body in the state for a potentially difficult conversation. This often startup. When me saying, Hey John, there’s something I’d like to share with you.

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: I have something that’s on my mind. Can you let me know when is a good time we can talk? He can have the freedom to say, Oh, I’m good right now. But if he senses this might be a difficult conversation, you can come back and say, Hey, love, give me a few minutes. So that way he can mentally, emotionally prepare to be present, to practice non defensiveness right off the bat, to regulate breathing.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples counselor: And think about how long we do this. We’ll catch our partner unawares without any awareness on our own part. Where is our partner during the day? Did they just have a fight with their mom or dad? Did they have a really lousy day at work? Are they stressed about other things? Did they 

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: just get stuck in traffic?

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples counselor: Yeah. There’s so many things that can go into [00:16:00] taking an argument off rail or any conversation off rail. So you want to make sure that your partner’s in a really good place emotionally to hear you. You want to give yourself the best chance of success. 

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: I call this the reciprocity of needs.

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: If I can communicate to John in a way he can hear me. Then I’ll have a much better chance of getting my needs met back in return. If it’s all about me all the time, I likely won’t get my need met back in return regarding being heard, being validated, looking for resolution, solution, compassion, whatever it might be.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples counselor: That’s a great segue also into this idea of needs and this one, it’s rewarding your kids for good behavior, catching them being good, you want to catch your partner being good, but in this case, it’s bring up what you do need. Rather than what you don’t need. And so often we’re trained to focus on the negative.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples counselor: I need you to stop doing this. I need you to keep don’t do that, but what is it you need? So I’m feeling jealous or insecure in our relationship right now. I need some reassurance. [00:17:00] No, you do it. 

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: I think it would be, one of the ones that I’ve seen, Hey, love, I’m really feeling disconnected. We haven’t had much time together.

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: What I’m really needing right now is some more time with you, versus you’re not, this isn’t our experience, I hear a lot of couples saying you’re never home. You’re too busy at work. You’re out with your buddies. You’re at golf all day. That’s just more complaints, which guess what? If they’re getting, if you’re getting mad at your partner.

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: The last thing they want to do is stay home, 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples counselor: push them away. We have to have the awareness to be aware that’s redundant of our own needs and then have the courage to speak up for them to be assertive about them. 

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: And we’ve learned over time, if we can state, Hey, I’m feeling really vulnerable sharing this.

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: Even that is a form of a softened startup because I’m owning my experience. It’s a way of letting him know where I’m at. It’s also helpful if, in a kind of a reverse way, but I think this is effective too, to prevent arguments. John’s gotten really good at being able to say to me early, at some point on the day, if [00:18:00] he’s feeling off or in a down mood or overtired, he’ll let me know where he’s at.

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: Emotionally, mentally, physically, and that’s really good information for me to have because if there was something on my mind that I wanted to bring up, I would wait until he was in a better emotional state or have been more rested. Again, support the behaviors you wish to continue to see which is you want your partner to be able to receive you when you have something to say.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples counselor: Yeah. Yeah. We got to move on. We got so much to share. Oh my gosh. Okay. So I love this idea from Terry real the paper cuts of doom or, the most relationships don’t end via a huge transgression like an affair. Most relationships end. via death by a thousand paper cuts where those paper cuts are tiny little hurts and annoyances and being ignored.

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: It’s the small little dismissals and I’ve had so much experience this where the smallest little slight It feels so painful. [00:19:00] It could be a dismissal of my emotion, a dismissal of what I’m interested in. This is not really from John. He’s actually really good at these things, but I’ve had the experience and understanding these little paper cuts, the small little things that in the moment you’re like, why should that bother me?

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: That wasn’t really a big deal. But when they accumulate. It becomes a really big deal because now you don’t feel seen, you don’t feel heard, you don’t feel validated, you don’t feel safe to express yourself, which creates a problem. 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples counselor: And just quickly to the brain science of this, they’ve done brain scan studies at UCLA, where they’ve looked at how does being excluded in a relationship make us feel.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples counselor: And what they found is it activates an area in the brain that is exactly the same area where physical pain registers, it’s the insula. And so what they’ve concluded from that is being excluded. Actually hits the same area in the brain and delivers the same kind of pain as physical pain, which makes sense from an evolutionary perspective.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples counselor: Because when we’re living in tribes, if we were [00:20:00] excluded from the tribe, it literally could mean life or death. So our emotional mind is still responding in the same way. 

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: So all this is to understand if it’s small, pay attention to it. You don’t have to wait for big things to bring it up. But again, if you have a fear of emotion, of difficult emotion, hard conversations, not knowing how to communicate about it, I understand it’s going to make it hard.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples counselor: And let’s share with you how small these Paper cuts are because I think this is a really illuminating example. And this is a tool from the Gotmans about bids for attention. And we make bids for attention all the time. Hey, honey, did I tell you about, or, oh, come look at this. 

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: Or can I read you something?

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: Or what are you doing? That’s one that we do all the time. Yeah, you 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples counselor: just walk in to the house. Hey, honey, I’m home. And. How you respond to that bid for attention is incredibly important for the health of your relationship. So there’s three ways to respond to them, positive, neutral, negative. 

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: And actually the most damaging part to the relationship is the neutral response.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples counselor: When 

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: [00:21:00] you feel, when you get ignored, That’s actually worse than someone snapping at you. Think about it like in the morning. So John likes to read the news in the morning on his phone. And if I’m making breakfast or we’re drinking coffee, and if I were to say something to him and he didn’t even look up from his phone, that would feel so dismissing, but if I were to try to talk to him and even if he were to say, can’t you see, I’m reading.

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: That would be a negative response, still better than nothing, at least I was acknowledged. 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples counselor: And a positive response is when I put down the phone and I look up and I say, no, baby, you didn’t tell me what were you talking about? 

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: It would still be a positive response to be able to say, Hey, you know what, can you tell me in just a minute?

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: I want to finish this article. It doesn’t mean you got to drop everything. It just means you’re showing an expressing interest in your partner. You’re caring about what they’re wanting to share their presence. And that positive bid for attention is going to be positive drops in the bucket when the inevitable ones fall, which we’ll talk about later.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples counselor: And what they find is [00:22:00] couples who are doing well, couples that are thriving and happy six years later, respond positively to each other’s bids for attention. 86 percent of the time and couples headed for breakup. It’s only 33 percent of the time. Now here’s the thing I love about this idea. It doesn’t matter where you are right now.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples counselor: What matters is you become aware of this concept and strive to get better. 

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: And the way that this. It becomes part of arguing because I want to make sure we’re continuing to tie this back up with arguing effectively. If you are giving positive bids for attention, even during arguments, that’s okay.

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: Because I think we have this notion that we can’t act positively toward our partner when we’re angry. It’s all or nothing. And I see this a lot with couples. Why would I be nice if I’m angry? Why would I acknowledge what you’re saying? Because that’s a positive bid for attention is a practice in non defensive listening in and of itself.

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: So there’s so much to share on this. 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples counselor: [00:23:00] Okay. And so here’s some broader rules from the 30, 000 foot view and what are your beliefs about emotion in general and conflict in general? So really important to consider that anger is not bad in and of itself. Anger is a healthy human emotion.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples counselor: It serves to signal when someone has crossed a boundary or someone is mistreating you. It serves to alert us when. Something has gone wrong and you need to assert yourself and speak up. 

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: And oftentimes there’s some other emotion underlying the anger. So part of that self work is getting really curious.

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: What’s causing my anger right now? I know when John and I used to get disconnected more of the time. Some of the emotions that you were feeling underneath anger wasn’t exactly anger. No, it could have been 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples counselor: sadness. It could have been embarrassing. It could have been shame. 

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: So having that knowledge of what’s actually going on helps you understand your anger, more of that self work, but the relational part is anger in and of itself isn’t a problem.

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: It’s what am I doing with it? So again, conflict in and of itself isn’t destructive. Conflict is healthy [00:24:00] conversation. We are entitled to two different points of view. We are two different human beings who are going to experience different emotions. We’re going to have different values that are driving our behavior.

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: And that’s really important to understand. 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples counselor: So moving on, 68 percent of the conflicts that we have in relationship are perpetual, ongoing, or unresolvable. So think about that for a second. Two thirds. Of what we argue about cannot be solved. They’re due to personality differences. They’re due to differences in the way we perceive the world.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples counselor: But if that’s true, then we really have to work on radically accepting the differences between us and our partner. 

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: Yeah. 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples counselor: And learn how to fight effectively and fair or. We can just go find another partner. The problem with that is you’re still going to have two thirds of the problems that are unresolved.

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: So part of that, just to add to that is, can we agree to disagree? 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples counselor: Can we 

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: let it be okay that we’re never going to see eye to eye on this and not make this a personal attack on character or values or how we [00:25:00] grew up. So as we said earlier, it’s not about always being right. It’s about staying connected, which really goes to how are we hearing our partners?

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: What is the emotion? Underneath their behaviors, their action, which again, it all comes back to awareness of what’s going on with you. The more you get to know your partner, awareness of what they’re experiencing. John and I know each other so well that we can truly be able to see what’s underneath our emotional expression, our actions, but it’s also taken us years to hone that, but also because we had a lot of curiosity about this.

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: So we’ve mentioned some of these a little bit earlier, but going into, when you’re going to argue, let’s have some agreement on some fair rules because Arguing can be a really effective form of gearing each other, getting out frustration. If we don’t get it out, it’s going to build and it’s going to explode later on.

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: So if we can find value in these difficult conversations, let it be okay to be [00:26:00] uncomfortable with some rules. No name calling, no criticism. The kitchen sinking is that accumulation of all the past shit being thrown in this argument right now. So really try to stay present. Stick with the issue at hand.

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: Focus on the behavior, not the character of the person. 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples counselor: Yeah, I think one issue at a time is a cardinal rule because what happens when we get angry is we start going back to the past and then pulling in all the stuff that we’ve been angry at and never really resolved. And then we go to that always, never.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples counselor: And it’s, you’re never going to get anywhere. You’re never going to resolve any of the issues that are resolvable if you start kitchen sinking. 

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: So I want to comment on this next little bullet point here, because I’ve been studying the Gottman’s for over 25 years. And I am humbled to say I have been sharing content of their research that I actually have gotten wrong.

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: I don’t know if I’m going to share it the right way for so many years. Is this okay? Good. This has changed because this is really important. And their research for years has said that we need to have a ratio of positive to negative exchange or emotions in your partnership [00:27:00] five to one. So five positives for everyone negative.

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: As more you can put into that positive emotional bucket, when there’s the inevitable withdrawal, you’re going to have enough left over. So the way that you do build up that positive emotional bucket is through gratitude, appreciation, expressing, what be more of the behaviors you wish to see versus focusing on the negative.

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: Turns out in current research on their new book, Fight it’s actually, you want to have five to one positive to negatives during conflict. They want it to be 20 to one every day. Now I don’t know about you, the clients that you see, the couples that we work with, people aren’t even hitting the five to one on a good day, let alone during conflict.

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: So let this be really interesting insight into how much of my dwelling and focusing on the negative, which by the way, understand our brains are designed. To focus on the negative. So we’re fighting an uphill battle from our evolutionary design anyways. So it’s going to take conscious effort and [00:28:00] attention and energy to look for the good and then share the good.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples counselor: And again, just like the bids for attention idea, it doesn’t matter where you are in this positive to negative ratio. What matters is that you become aware of this ratio and seek to get better at it. Yeah. And especially for men. I talked to a lot of men who really struggle with, sharing positive information, gratitude, appreciation, humor.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples counselor: But we’ve got to work to tap into that inner coach or inner cheerleader in us and be more comfortable sharing positive emotion because a lot of us, it’s been socialized out of. And that’s really a problem for relationship. 

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: Yeah. And this is something that, moving on here. John has really helped me get much better at, I used to take myself way too seriously.

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: So then especially during conflict, I couldn’t even find the lightheartedness or the humor and humor, even as research shows is actually an effective antidote in the middle of an argument. [00:29:00] Couples who can laugh at here we go again. Oh my God. I can’t believe we’re here. Like seriously, if you can see that with some humor, it can diffuse some of that negative experience, negative emotion, helping you get back on track to being able to hear each other.

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: Remember, Oh, we’re just human. That’s one of the things we say, damn, here we go being human again. Even 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples counselor: a bad joke is a repair attempt. 

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: You’re good at that. 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples counselor: Oh, I’m great 

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: at the bad jokes. When you recognize that the conversation has gone awry. And we’re going to talk about in a moment, part of the ways this can really keep you stuck.

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: Cause we used to get stuck in this a lot, but when you recognize I’m no longer effective right now, I actually need to take a break. Now I used to see that as abandonment in the middle of conflict, especially where all I was seeking was connection and close proximity, but John actually knew himself really well of when he was getting overwhelmed, when he didn’t want to say something he didn’t mean.

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: So the Gottman’s research says great. [00:30:00] But you got it. The key for this. If you’re going to take a break in conflict is you got to tell your partner when you’re going to be back a minimum amount of time to really help reset the brain is about 20 minutes. 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples counselor: Maximum is 24 hours. 

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: Do not take longer, but also let them know, Hey, hon, I’m going to be back.

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: John actually wasn’t great at this at times as he needed space, but he gave me no indication of when he would return. And sometimes it would last over a day at the worst points of our conflict, which was so dysregulating and it took time to build trust back up that, Oh, he’s not going anywhere. He just needs space to calm himself down.

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: So I know I keep reiterating this, but this is the part of the self awareness to do your own work, to understand how do I show up in conflict. And I think this leads right into our next. Concept is understanding what can often happen is this anxious avoidant trap, and this is based on different attachment styles.

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: So there’s three main ones, secure, anxious, avoidant. There’s a [00:31:00] mix of anxious and avoidant, but bottom line, when we feel safe with our primary person, We feel safe to not just explore and go be ourselves because we know they’re going to always be there when we get back. So it makes conflict much safer to express knowing I’m not going to be abandoned or rejected for expressing this.

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: And 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples counselor: so briefly, let us go through this anxious avoidant trap as we experienced it, because I think it’s really illuminating. And a lot 

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: of couples resonate with that. Oh, 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples counselor: It’s by far the most prevalent dynamic. And so during conflict, during disagreements, I was the avoidant partner. And I would start to get flooded after 15, 20 minutes, and then I would shut down and it looked like and it was stonewalling.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples counselor: But from my internal perspective, I’m thinking, I don’t want to say anything in anger, I don’t want to say anything that’s going to hurt her. And the best I can do is just shut myself down and then try and get a timeout so I can go down, go away and calm myself down. But to her. 

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: It was pure abandonment.

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: And the further he [00:32:00] took space, the more I would chase him, because what we were really both trying to do was seek regulation be able to feel calm and Clear and safe in our own bodies. What can I 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples counselor: jump in there? Cause I think it’s an important point. I was trying to seek regulation alone as an individual.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples counselor: She was trying to seek regulation together as a couple 

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: Through connection, and I didn’t know how to self regulate in those moments because what felt safe to me was to be with him. Even if we were disconnected, that felt better. And the more I tried for that, ironically, the more it pushed him away.

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: So this is why it’s a trap. Because the anxious partner is seeking regulation through connection, and the avoidant partner is seeking regulation through isolation or being solitary. 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples counselor: And so what was my work in that dynamic? My work was communicating that I’m getting flooded. Ask for a timeout saying to her, Hey, I’m not going anywhere.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples counselor: I’ll be back in 20 minutes. And then I also had to do some interesting work on my own regarding shame that I would feel because I [00:33:00] really didn’t want to disappoint or hurt her. And when I did, it would bring me to this point where just for a few seconds, I would hear thoughts in my head Oh, I’m no good in this relationship.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples counselor: I guess she’d be better off by herself. And it took me a while to go back and think. Oh, my God. That’s shame. Shame being the belief that we’re unworthy of love connection or belong. 

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: And my work in my anxious attachment style in those moments was to recognize I need to learn how to self regulate. I can’t rely on someone else to make me feel safe and secure.

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: I needed to understand where my insecurity was coming from. The story I was telling myself was he was leaving and not coming back, which. Wasn’t true, but I couldn’t see that based on my own stuff. So it was a deep practice for me to say, okay. He’s not available to help regulate me right now, which is another way of saying calming me down.

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: This is my work and I don’t like it. It was hard. It sucked. It felt lonely. It was scary. And that was more indication. I had more work [00:34:00] to do around that. So I’ve gotten much better at feeling safe and secure. Partly because of the work that we have done during conflict to understand what’s going on so that he doesn’t abandon me and I’m not chasing him, both is violating our needs.

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: But when we can be curious and compassionate to what’s the need underneath this behavior, then we have the freedom to feel safe in conflict because we’re practicing that non defensive listening, all of those skills to allow ourselves to express each other, which is so much easier said than done. This is hard work, you guys, and we struggled in this for quite some time.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples counselor: And it’s incredibly rewarding. 

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: And that’s what I was going to say is now I feel really safe saying something because I know we’ve got the baseline of the tools and the safety to know how to get through it. 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples counselor: All right, so more effective communication skills. One of the great tools with communication is non [00:35:00] violent communication.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples counselor: In addition to curiosity. And compassion. And I think one of the things we’re always trying to do in relationship or many of the couples that we see, we’re trying to be heard. And we’re so worried about I’m so worried about me getting my message out how I feel out and you hearing far better to come at it with curiosity, with regards to I wonder what Jory’s feeling right now.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples counselor: What’s she trying to tell me? What’s coming up? What’s coming 

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: up underneath this action? 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples counselor: What’s the emotions underneath her words? And how can I phrase what I’m thinking and feeling as gently as possible so that she has the best chance of hearing me? So using a lot of I statements. I feel not using criticism, not using put downs, trying to monitor and regulate my own anger and tone of voice and body language.

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: Yeah. And nonviolent communication is a four step process of observing the behaviors that are happening by with an I statement. I love starting off by, I’m noticing the second step [00:36:00] is to name how, whatever it is you’re noticing, how it makes you feel. So you’re owning your experience. Then you’re able to say, if I’m feeling angry, what do I need to alleviate that emotion?

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: I need to have a healthy conversation. I need to be heard. And the last one is a request. So right now, can you please fill in the blank? People misunderstand that nonviolent communication. Isn’t saying I’m noticing you’re being an asshole. I’m noticing you’re doing this. I’m noticing. So if you’re. Putting a you statement with an I statement in front of it.

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: That’s still on an I statement. It’s not, it’s still externalizing blame under the guise of an I statement. And it’s actually not going to be effective. One of our favorite scripts to be able to look at ways to communicate is through the account on Instagram, a secure attachment. There’s so much valuable information.

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: And she’ll give a little script of when blank happens, I’m feeling this. What I need is this. Can you please do this? And there’s it’s like Mad Libs for arguments. And if you can shift the way you communicate. [00:37:00] It’s an absolute game changer and it takes practice, but it’s like learning a new language and it’s worthwhile to learn 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples counselor: and the extension of that is you want to validate the behaviors you want to see more of.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples counselor: So we were quite good at expressing appreciation for how we communicate about something like, Hey honey I really appreciate how you brought up. The fact that you were annoyed when I came home late the other day, right? Those kinds of things, because you want to reward the behaviors you want to see.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples counselor: And we’re not very good at doing this. So it takes practice and awareness. 

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: The non defensive listening piece. I don’t think we’ve named this exact part just yet. We think when someone expresses Themselves that the other person has to do something about it. I want to invite you to consider what would it look like if you actually just gave themselves, gave your partner, then I can’t even talk.

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: What would happen if you just gave your partner an ability to express themselves without needing any next piece? So what this looks like in practice, John’s gotten quite good at this, which is a huge [00:38:00] departure from that stonewalling and avoidant. behaviors. If I express something that I’m angry about, he will simply say, 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples counselor: thank you for sharing your anger with me.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples counselor: I can see that this really makes you mad. 

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: Now, that’s not the end of the story, but in the moment, that point of connection of feeling seen, heard, invalidated, not getting any defensive response, not getting reactions, gives us the ability to then talk about 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples counselor: it. It feels like coming up for air after you’ve been held underwater for several minutes.

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: And it makes me feel like, oh, I can express myself and I’m not going to get punished for it. 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples counselor: Quote, unquote, you have an exhalation. 

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: Yeah. 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples counselor: It’s wow, that feels good. 

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: And now we can give each other space to feel what they’re feeling versus denying someone their reality of what they’re feeling or telling them that what they’re feeling is wrong.

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: So the last piece of not the last, this is so much, but this is the last we want to share on this part of it is when you have a disagreement. You might need to revisit it a handful of times and John [00:39:00] actually used to get pretty frustrated with me because I liked to visit things with some regularity with some 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples counselor: frequency.

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: And what I like to say is if I’m still not feeling resolved or complete in this and we are not. But if I were to bring something up again, after we talked about it, or maybe a day or a week later and said you know, hey love, I’m really wanting to talk about this again at first his reaction be like.

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: Seriously, like I thought we were done. 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples counselor: Yeah. And so I’ve had to learn from Jory about this, the importance of doing this. And now I’m a strong believer that the more we can go back and revisit some of these disagreements or ruptures or disconnections, the greater objectivity we get, the more curiosity we have, the more distance we have from it.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples counselor: So we can actually look at it with clear eyes. And determine what’s this really about? Why did I get triggered right here? Was that really about you? Was it really about how you communicated? Was it really about my stuff? Was it about past relationship? Was it about something that happened in my childhood?

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples counselor: And sometimes this stuff takes some real thinking and digging to uncover what’s really going on. But [00:40:00] The more you practice it, the more you do it, you create this positive upward spiral of going back over these past arguments, and you gain greater and greater control and ability to manage them and confidence.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples counselor: That you can deal with it and confidence that you’re actually changing these dynamics. 

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: And I used to always say, look, I don’t care if we argue, I want to learn from it. I want to grow from it. The more we can have these conversations with curiosity without retriggering, because there’s often a fear of if I bring it up again, I’m going to re trigger the situation.

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: If I bring it up again, I don’t want to rock the boat, we’re in a good place right now. So part of it is the intention for which you’re bringing it back up. It’s so that. You don’t get stuck in the same patterns because I see couples getting stuck in the exact same argument all the time, which means they’re not learning from what’s going on inside of them, what’s the relational dynamic, and most importantly, how to effectively repair 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples counselor: it is the definition of insanity.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples counselor: The same thing over and over again, expecting a different outcome. 

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: If [00:41:00] you continue to do work with us, this is ongoing, but if you are finding yourself getting stuck in patterns that we all just named and the arguments aren’t getting resolved, some of the antidotes to that is your self work.

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: Of a mindfulness practice to really pause, take a deep breath, get connected to what am I experiencing right now? What are my thoughts? What are my emotions? What are my sensations in my body? The more I can know myself. The more I’m able to bring that self knowledge into my relational dynamic in a more effective relational way.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples counselor: And one of the things I love about this very simple exercise of stopping, pausing, doing a body scan, taking a breath three times a day, and simply asking yourself, What am I feeling right now is it’s the easiest, most powerful way I know of to build meta awareness or self awareness to build psychological distance from your thought stream so that you can look at it more objectively.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples counselor: And what they found in [00:42:00] research is that the answer to this question doesn’t even matter. You don’t need to answer it at all. You can, that’s great, but the practice of stopping pausing and asking yourself, what am I feeling right now? Is building that self awareness 

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: And to reinstate, because I know I keep saying it, if you don’t have the self awareness in your relational dynamic, you’re going to only ever get stuck in externalization of blame and pointing fingers.

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: And it’s never going to resolve in a way that’s going to help you be more connected ever. So this is actually the most critical piece of all of this arguing effectively is understanding yourself, what you’re feeling and digging deeper of where’s this coming from? What’s my triggers and then sharing your triggers.

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: I want to say this actually, cause we didn’t mention this. Sharing your triggers with your partner. When I start work with new clients, new couples, one of the first questions I always ask is, do you know your partner’s deepest insecurities, sensitivities, or wounded places? I would say it’s about 50 50 that they actually have that knowledge of their [00:43:00] partner.

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: The reason that’s important is if you don’t know what your partner’s deepest insecurity or wounded places, you’re likely going to activate it in an argument. And it’s going to be hugely disconnecting. When you have that awareness of your partner, you can be mindful, even when you’re angry to not say the thing that’s going to hit them where it hurts the most, because those are the ones that are really hard to repair from.

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: And as we’ve talked about in previous. Videos and our teachings, repair attempts are hard. You’ve got to keep repairing until you are feeling resolved and connected. But if you’re constantly in arguments, hitting below the belt and saying things that you know are going to hurt. That knowledge is one of the things that can help you.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples counselor: And the final piece here is taking turns and practicing, expressing gratitude and appreciation for one another. And it’s really a game of what are the variety of things I can be grateful to that my partner does and how small, how granular can I get? [00:44:00] And so that also creates this. greater awareness of the relational dynamic, but it’s beginning to train your mind to focus on what’s good, what’s going well, what’s the positive in this relationship, instead of just allowing our minds negativity bias to run away with us without training and without awareness.

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: People get stuck on, why should I thank my partner for something that is their job? Why should I thank my partner for what they’re supposed to be doing? There should be nothing you’re not appreciating about in your partner. Like I know someone who wants their husband had taken their kid to the dentist and she, because of that, she was able to go to the gym in the morning.

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: And I said did you thank him for doing that? She was like why it was his job. A, you can still appreciate what’s his job, B, it’ll allow you to go to the gym, C, it’s great co parenting. I could go on and on there. 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples counselor: I think the biggest reason to me is that it puts drops of positive emotion into that bucket.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples counselor: Cause I’m shooting for 

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: 20, not five. We need that 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples counselor: because there’s inevitably going to be times when we get disconnected [00:45:00] and when we struggle and when life gets hard. So the more that you’ve got a built up of reserves in that positive emotional bucket, The better your relationship is going to do. 

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: And it could be about their behaviors, their character, their values.

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: We just, we just finished watching movie and I just appreciated John for the kind of movies we get to watch together. That means a lot to me, right? Even his energy during the movie or the comments, like I can get really granular with my appreciation with you because it actually means that much to me.

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: So if you think it, share it, if you feel it, let the other one know. No one’s ever. In a tire of hearing that they’re appreciated ever. So I hope that you saw there was so much in this, and this is all foundational in the work that we do in our relationship coaching. Because bottom line, love isn’t enough.

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: And you can love someone and still argue and not have it cause really deep paper cuts. In your relationship, you can learn from them. You can heal from them. It can make you [00:46:00] stronger. You can have that greater self awareness, which is actually going to benefit everyone in your life, not just your primary partner.

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: And these are skills that are learnable. As John likes to always bring out the research. He’s so good at remembering that. See, look at that little compliment. I just appreciate him in the middle of that there. This matters. This is really important stuff. Love isn’t enough. You can still argue, you can fight, the key is in how we’re doing it, how we’re repairing, and what we’re learning in the process.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples counselor: And our firm belief is that everyone deserves and is entitled to happiness. But we have such a long way to go in getting there. And one of the foundational issues in creating a happy, thriving life is having a happy, thriving relationship with your partner. And we have not been taught how to do that.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples counselor: We’ve got to be curious. We’ve got to learn the tools to get better at it. And it’s possible. 

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: It’s 100 percent possible. If you want it, it can happen. It’s not what you wish for. It’s what you work for. And one of the things we hear a lot of I wasn’t role modeled this. Okay. [00:47:00] None of us were great.

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: So whatever you didn’t see, you can still have it. If you didn’t like it, what you did see, let that be information of what you actually want to create. So if this is inspiring to you, There’s a lot of ways to get more of this work with John and I, we’ve got our yearlong masterclass series. We do couples coaching, we do relationship retreats.

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: So the link, you can be able to find all of our information of how to actually not know this stuff cognitively, but be guided and coached. Into putting it into practice. 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples counselor: Yeah. And that link is the ultimate relationship. com. You can also look at jory rose. com or the evolved caveman. com. 

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: I think we actually just changed our ultimate relationship.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples counselor: Oh, do we love isn’t enough. com? 

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: Yeah. So we’re in the midst of changing that over. So depending on when you hear it, it’s going to be love isn’t enough. net. 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples counselor: Oh, thank you. 

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: Love isn’t enough. net. 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples counselor: I’m just getting that. We’re 

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: just changing our language over. Anyhow, thanks you guys so much for tuning in. We are so grateful that we get to do this work together because having been [00:48:00] in our professional careers for over 20 and 30 years, being in relationship for over eight years, we find we’re in a really unique spot.

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: Of being two mental health professionals in relationship that included a breakup after an engagement. Like we have been practicing all these tools. So professional, tools aside from a relational human standpoint, this stuff actually works. And we’ve never been more connected, been more happy, more secure in our relationship.

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: And if we can do that, anyone 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples counselor: can. So thank you so much for your time, attention and curiosity. 

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: You will.