How To Build A Happy, Thriving Relationship

Welcome to The Evolved Caveman Podcast. In this episode Joree Rose, LMFT and Dr. John Schinnerer tackle what it truly takes to build and maintain a happy, thriving relationship. Whether you’re in the honeymoon phase or navigating the ups and downs of long-term commitment, this show is for anyone looking to deepen their connection with their partner and cultivate lasting joy.

It is often said that love is a feeling, but a great relationship goes beyond emotions—it’s built on trust, communication, respect, and a willingness to grow together. In this podcast, John & Joree dive into the real-life strategies, habits, and mindsets that couples use to keep their relationships strong. From overcoming conflict to nurturing intimacy and balancing personal growth with partnership, they uncover the foundational ideas to sustaining love over the long haul.

So, whether you’re tuning in with your partner or on your own, join Joree Rose, LMFT, & Dr. John Schinnerer as they explore what it really takes to not just survive—but thrive—together.

And tune in for the premiere episode of our new podcast, Love Isn’t Enough which drops tomorrow on all major podcasting platforms.  It’s all you need to know to create the happy, thriving relationship you so richly deserve!

If you’d like to listen to this episode on Apple Podcasts, click here to go to the Podcast.

And here is a copy of the transcript of the show if you’d prefer to read it…

How To Build A Happy, Thriving Relationship

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: [00:00:00] Hello, courageous listener. It is I, Dr. John, back with the latest episode of the Evolved Caveman Podcast. And today I am honored to have with me my partner in life and love, the beautiful Joree Rose. Welcome, Ms. Rose. 

Joree Rose, LMFT, Couples Counselor: You sound very official, like you’re announcing something much grander than our podcast.

Joree Rose, LMFT, Couples Counselor: I’m 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: hoping to be in the World Series next year. 

Joree Rose, LMFT, Couples Counselor: Hello. Hi. Hi. 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: So we are here today to talk a little bit about relationships and about our new podcast, which we launched this week, this Tuesday called Love Isn’t Enough. 

Joree Rose, LMFT, Couples Counselor: I’m so excited. It’s finally here. We’ve only been talking about this for quite some time.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: Yeah. And it’s all about relationships. It’s about how to get the relationship you want, you deserve, how to find happiness and fulfillment. [00:01:00] Your relationship and on the flip side, what gets in the way of that? 

Joree Rose, LMFT, Couples Counselor: And let’s qualify by saying we’re not telling people to go out and go find a new relationship, necess.

Joree Rose, LMFT, Couples Counselor: In cases, not necessarily. 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: It depends, 

Joree Rose, LMFT, Couples Counselor: But the idea really is that we can build the relationship we desire, deserve, crave, want, long for yearn for. Cry about see in media and healthy versions of media. And let me finish my sentence that we can have that. But as ours, public cast is so aptly named, you need more than love.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: Yeah. One of the things that, that when you were talking, makes me think that a lot of times what gets in the way of a fantastic relationship is one partner who wants to grow and learn and find ways to become better and show up better in relationship. And the other one that. Doesn’t well, 

Joree Rose, LMFT, Couples Counselor: we’ve seen this firsthand in a variety of examples and That’s a [00:02:00] real challenge, especially because one of the things that we always tell our clients when they ask, how do I know if I should stay with this person?

Joree Rose, LMFT, Couples Counselor: One of our stock answers is someone who’s inclined towards having a growth mindset, especially about relationships. And if someone has no desire to grow period, it’s going to be really hard to get them on board with wanting to develop new tools, new skills, because it’s not just. Developing the new tools or skills about how to communicate more effectively or non defensive listening or repair after a fight.

Joree Rose, LMFT, Couples Counselor: What we’re really talking about is peeling back those layers to look at ourself and see what’s going on inside of me that’s preventing me from leaning into safety, trust, vulnerability, communication. And more. 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: I think, what keeps us from doing that, I would say it’s socialization and fear.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: And I think, 

Joree Rose, LMFT, Couples Counselor: I think, hold on. We’re talking mostly for men there. 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: Yes. [00:03:00] 

Joree Rose, LMFT, Couples Counselor: So let’s just be well, okay. 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: But what I was thinking about my male clients, where I am so proud, admiring and respectful of the men that show up to do the work that are willing to look at themselves that are willing to go do that deep dive into how can I be better simply because I think it’s often the men that are the biggest barriers in relationship because of fear.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: Of appearing weak, right? Like we don’t want to be vulnerable because we see that as weakness. And yet if we’re not, if we don’t learn to be more vulnerable, women are initiating divorce 80 percent of the time of those are that are after divorce. It’s 80 percent now in the U S which tells me that women are.

Joree Rose, LMFT, Couples Counselor: Fed up 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: terribly unsatisfied in their relationships. 

Joree Rose, LMFT, Couples Counselor: I’m sorry. Was that too strong of an answer for me to support women? 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: There’s no swearing at all 

Joree Rose, LMFT, Couples Counselor: fucking fed up so Let’s okay So this is actually really I think a twist that we haven’t actually talked about before and I think great for your audience in particular [00:04:00] So if we’re talking about we need to have a growth mindset, which is going to include the ability and the courage to look within And you just named that you are proud of the courageous men that you work with, who are open to that.

Joree Rose, LMFT, Couples Counselor: Let’s see if we can help understand what is it about those men that are giving them that courage. Say I can think of a couple of things. And so if someone’s listening right now and it’s I don’t know that I have that in me, what would I need to do to be able to get there, other than have a great coach like you or us in guiding them.

Joree Rose, LMFT, Couples Counselor: What would you say? 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: I think part of it is and this is typical, right? Whenever we do couples work, I would say 90 to 95 percent of the time, it’s the female dragging the male in to do couples work. Correct. And then that’s shifting a little bit in the last five to 10 years, but it’s always been that way.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: And I think that. We’ll continue in a large, [00:05:00] 

Joree Rose, LMFT, Couples Counselor: large 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: capacity. And 

Joree Rose, LMFT, Couples Counselor: that goes back to what you said a moment ago about socialization as women are socialized to be more relational. So that makes perfect sense. More 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: communicative, more emotionally aware. There’s all sorts of things, right? And we are not, and so I think, if we’re not in relationship, and we’ll just talk about this assuming heterosexuality, but it can go either way.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: If we’re talking to homosexual relationship, you look at who’s the more masculine, who’s the more feminine, and we can generalize based on that. But just to keep things easier for us if you’re not in relationship, I don’t know I’m doubly impressed. If there’s a man who comes in to work on himself while not in relationship, because I think one of the greatest motivators, and I know it’s been so for me over the years, one of the greatest motivators to facing those.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: Those fears, let’s call it. Those doubts, those insecurities has been you. 

Joree Rose, LMFT, Couples Counselor: My little, 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: most of us men that it’s a female that really lights a fire under her butt and says, you need to go in and talk to somebody, 

Joree Rose, LMFT, Couples Counselor: right? Or [00:06:00] else I’m leaving you. 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: And part of that is, the socialization of be stoic.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: Don’t feel part of it’s be self reliant. Don’t ask for help. So 

Joree Rose, LMFT, Couples Counselor: let’s grind it 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: out, deal with it yourself. 

Joree Rose, LMFT, Couples Counselor: So let’s get really nuanced here. Cause I think. While what we’re saying is accurate and what we’ve seen in our professional and also personal experience in our relationship, let’s get really nuanced for the listener who’s okay, I have someone who’s telling me this, I’m still scared this, feels really overwhelming and daunting.

Joree Rose, LMFT, Couples Counselor: I don’t want to lose my partner, but I’m scared shitless of looking within. Let’s talk to that guy who is. Open, but fearful. 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: Okay. So the first question I would ask is what are you afraid of feeling? And I think that’s it, most of it, right? Yeah, I don’t want to feel. I don’t know how to feel. I love the analogy of, I’ve got a scab on me.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: If I scratch the scab, it’s going to start bleeding and it’s never going to stop. In other words, with emotion, if I start to dig into my emotion, how I really feel underneath this [00:07:00] surface of invulnerability, if I take the mask off, I’m never going to be able to stop feeling. And so God forbid, I’m at work and I start crying.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: Or I show fear or I’m overcome with a panic attack or anxiety, which, actually might be happening anyway, since we’re suppressing all of our emotion, 

Joree Rose, LMFT, Couples Counselor: but it’s not coming out as maybe a panic attack or it might be coming out as anger and blown out. And I 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: think the real fear is crying. I think that’s the biggest one for us men is I that’s the weakness, right?

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: Cause if I go to work and I lose my temper. That’s much more acceptable. Now it might create problems depending on what you say and do, but it’s much more acceptable than if I go to work and start sobbing my eyes out. 

Joree Rose, LMFT, Couples Counselor: Right. 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: Because then that’s an easy judgment to weakness. And I really think that’s one of our biggest fears.

Joree Rose, LMFT, Couples Counselor: So if that’s our biggest fear or sorry, men’s biggest fears, women have their own different fears, I think. If feeling let’s just put that as a broad category of [00:08:00] feeling their emotions, crying, being one example getting overwhelmed with the motion and not knowing how to turn the volume down on it to get it to stop feeling weak.

Joree Rose, LMFT, Couples Counselor: You just said that’s part of it. What do we do about that? 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: Then I would say there’s also shame involved with the feeling weak. I could also see just being overwhelmed, paralyzed. Like I think part of the fear is not being rational, not being, not appearing in charge. And so what do we do about that?

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: I think that we educate people that’s not how emotions work. Even in, I’ve been doing this work for 30 years and particularly since Brett’s death. I’ve been much more easily able to access tears, whether it’s, watching a romantic comedy or, seeing something awe inspiring 

Joree Rose, LMFT, Couples Counselor: or even a deep conversation between us.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: Yeah. Or I can gratitude. I can bring myself to tears with that, but it’s much more controllable and manageable. If I don’t [00:09:00] want to, Bring up tears. If I don’t want to feel that deeply, I can distract myself. I can take a deep breath. I can turn it off. And so I think there is truth to once you start to dig into the emotional landscape inside you, that those emotions will come out a little more strongly at first, but it doesn’t mean that you’re going to be.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: Because burnout is almost never angry or sad or guilt ridden. 100 percent of the time. It doesn’t mean that you can’t compartmentalize it still. 

Joree Rose, LMFT, Couples Counselor: It 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: doesn’t mean that you can’t turn it off when you want to.

Joree Rose, LMFT, Couples Counselor: And that we get really stuck when we don’t complete the emotion cycle. And all based on research, they explain that there’s a beginning, middle and end to an emotional experience. And we tend to stop ourselves in the middle and then over time, those emotional uncompleted cycles [00:10:00] compound, which lead to emotional burnout.

Joree Rose, LMFT, Couples Counselor: And in that book, they give seven different research based ways to help get through that emotion tunnel, breathing movement, crying is actually one of the interesting thing is it’s not crying while ruminating on while you’re crying. And why, what’s going on and because that can then get us more in the emotion versus out of it, but it’s really tuning into the sensation of the tears, and like the somatic experience of the crying is what really makes a cathartic reaching out to someone you love and trust.

Joree Rose, LMFT, Couples Counselor: Journaling, but a lot of these things are going to be more relational that men might not tap into what if they don’t have someone they can reach out to and they feel embarrassed and then they get stuck in a shame spiral, like you said. Even just talking about this makes me really have a lot of compassion for the men who have the desire, but not yet have the capacity to be more growth minded.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: Yeah. It’s. That whole man box [00:11:00] phenomenon is awful to me in the sense that it really cuts us off from two thirds of the emotional spectrum. And the thing that frustrates me the most about it is it really cuts us off and divorces us from the possibility of happiness because one third of that emotional spectrum that we are cut off from is the positive emotions.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: I would argue because, we don’t want to be seen as something we can be, people can attack our sexuality. If we’re too positive emotion, fill in the blank. If we’re too excited, too romantic, too joyous, and going back to high school and middle school, that stuff happened all the time. As young men, we were mocked and humiliated by our friends.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: If we wanted to go spend time with our girlfriend and like it, 

Joree Rose, LMFT, Couples Counselor: and yet everyone wanted a girlfriend. So it’s this, double bind that guys are put in you want this and now we’re going to tease you. Cause you now have it. How much do you think was jealousy for the guys who didn’t have a girlfriend?

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: I think the funny thing is, we talk about this a lot of time and attention is the currency of relationship. So that’s true for your male or female, [00:12:00] both. Male and female relationships. And so if all of a sudden your time and attention, which you were spending on your group of guy friends now goes, and usually it was a big number.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: 75, 80, 90 percent now goes to a new girlfriend, the guy friends your circle of guy friends were, but her, they were hurt. They were angry. They were jealous. They were, and I get it right. You all of a sudden you’ve withdrawn your time and attention, which is painful. And yet we didn’t have the skills or the emotional awareness to talk about it at the time and say, Hey, I just want to let you know, like when you stopped hanging out with us, because you were hanging out with Sally, like that hurt is it possible?

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: You could split your time and attention a little bit different. 

Joree Rose, LMFT, Couples Counselor: So I love this topic because we have seen in our own relationship. The benefits of doing that relational work. And, to give you a lot of credit, you had a growth mindset in most areas of your life, but as you’ve shared on this podcast, I’ve been [00:13:00] quite stuck in certain areas, relational, certain areas, and the, not even the risk.

Joree Rose, LMFT, Couples Counselor: Cause at that point we had been broken up. You had already lost me, and by your choice. And so it was. Knowing, Oh shit. I know what’s on the other side of not being vulnerable. I know what’s on the other side of not doing the work. And 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: well, and when we broke up, it wasn’t for lack of love.

Joree Rose, LMFT, Couples Counselor: Not right. 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: It was because we’d gotten stuck and I couldn’t see any way for us to change those patterns that we were stuck in and the patterns were not about you. And I, the patterns were about things that far preceded our relationship. 

Joree Rose, LMFT, Couples Counselor: And so that’s where I’m trying to get to is, again, if a guy who’s in your same shoes in that moment, you had to tap into an immense amount of courage.

Joree Rose, LMFT, Couples Counselor: We went to 12 hours of therapy over two days. Talk about facing the fire and risking immense [00:14:00] vulnerability. And so from my view, what let you. State in that discomfort was knowing what the end goal was, which is for us to be back together. That you had all experienced the alternative. Am I, would that be accurate for you?

Joree Rose, LMFT, Couples Counselor: For me to say Yes and I, 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: I think the other piece of it that was really helpful to me was doing that internal family systems work on my own. 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: . 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: On that drive down to LA when I was listening to, no bad parts by Dick Schwartz. And that, that book, by the way, if you’re interested is a great book especially on audible, because Dick will walk you through a lot of these exercises and someone else reads the text, which is great because Dick’s brilliant, but he puts you to sleep if he’s just talking.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: But it’s perfect for the exercises. And so I actually went in and spoke to my five year old self that was coming up with shame when we would get into disagreement. And so part of that was helpful in healing that inner child so that I wasn’t getting caught up and flooded and lost in shame. And so I could stick with [00:15:00] things longer 

Joree Rose, LMFT, Couples Counselor: in 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: disagreements or those heavy, heavily emotionally laden conversations.

Joree Rose, LMFT, Couples Counselor: And we got through it. 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: Yeah. 

Joree Rose, LMFT, Couples Counselor: And that’s what we really want to inspire is whatever the route is, whether it’s deep intensive therapy, whether it’s more lighthearted weekly therapy, which necessarily is it lighthearted, but not as intensive. 12 hour intensive even the use of psychedelics, whatever the path is.

Joree Rose, LMFT, Couples Counselor: I would offer to the listener is to keep the your mind and heart set on what is it you’re working towards, because if you keep focused on what the roadblocks are going to be right we know energy flows or intent goes those roadblocks are going to not necessarily get easier. We just have to learn how to go around them or see them as speed bumps, not roadblocks.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: Yeah. We were watching shrinking last night on Apple TV and there was a great line by Harrison Ford. He was coming out of a drug induced night and he was half awake. And he was talking to a gay couple who had just, agreed to get married, just said yes to a proposal. And he was [00:16:00] like, my, my advice to you, which was unasked for my advice to you is stay open, 

Joree Rose, LMFT, Couples Counselor: stay 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: open.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: And whenever that need for defensiveness arises, let it go and turn towards one another. And I was like, yeah, like that’s great advice. It’s hard to do, but it’s absolutely on point. 

Joree Rose, LMFT, Couples Counselor: And. For someone who’s not able to quite access that. I think a starting point would be to acknowledge, Hey, honey, I’m really working at staying open right now.

Joree Rose, LMFT, Couples Counselor: It feels really hard. Please offer me some grace because I am trying. And I think that’s the language that if most couples would adopt, because we go immediately to defensiveness, reactivity and assumptions and judgments. And we’re going to that all or nothing thinking that black or white rigid thinking of you’ll never, you’ll always right.

Joree Rose, LMFT, Couples Counselor: And 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: I would say that’s based on hurt feelings underneath. And that’s to me is one of the keys of being aware, especially for men. It’s what’s underneath your [00:17:00] anger and anger can sometimes be anger, but a lot of times it’s just. Wow, that really hurt my feelings. Or it was embarrassing where there was, there’s sadness or, anxiety.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: There’s other things that can be under there, but in a relationship, I would argue 90 percent of the time. Yeah. My feelings just got hurt. And then I flipped to anger without any awareness of the hurt, feelings underneath. And it’s a much different conversation than I can. If I can say, Hey, honey, what you just said, hurt my feelings like that.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: That’s done. That was a little too far. Versus. I can’t believe you just fucking said that. And then, going off the, that anger route, those are two different conversations. One of which has a much better chance of a successful outcome. 

Joree Rose, LMFT, Couples Counselor: And part of that success of the outcome is the other person receiving the intention.

Joree Rose, LMFT, Couples Counselor: I’m working on it. I’m trying. Because we’re not going to hit the mark right off the bat. 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: That’s trusting positive intent. 

Joree Rose, LMFT, Couples Counselor: And I was going to lead to saying part of it’s hard because what we’re seeking is an [00:18:00] environment within our relationship in which we feel safety and trust. And if we’re at the point where we’re being defensive and reactive, we don’t feel safe and trusting of the positive intent.

Joree Rose, LMFT, Couples Counselor: And if we’re taking those small steps towards, this is that gray zone in which I think we have more movement than people realize, because they don’t see things changing yet. But what we’re wanting to do is change that. Assumption of the intention so that when someone’s vulnerable, we can say, wow, thank you so much for your vulnerability.

Joree Rose, LMFT, Couples Counselor: Even if what the vulnerability was hard or hurtful, because that’s what we want to get towards is the authenticity, and honesty of communicating how we feel 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: and receiving that in a nonjudgmental way, 

Joree Rose, LMFT, Couples Counselor: which is it’s all a practice. And, I, as someone who’s been teaching mindfulness and meditation for 15 years, truly believe.

Joree Rose, LMFT, Couples Counselor: That meditation is a very root of all these tools. And in meditation, we are practicing breathing. In an effort to [00:19:00] regulate our nervous system, whenever we’re getting those arguments, it’s because our nervous system has been activated. That fight flight freeze has been turned on, and we’re in a survival mode and we’re protecting our own safety, our heart, our space, our wound, whatever it is.

Joree Rose, LMFT, Couples Counselor: In meditation, If you are practicing your breathing, you’re practicing building the muscle of regulating your nervous system, you’re creating an observer stance where you’re just observing what’s arising versus being in the middle of it, which will help in a fight. And you’re also practicing accepting what’s arising without judgment.

Joree Rose, LMFT, Couples Counselor: And when we do that internally, we then can take it off the cushion in our own life cushion, so to speak, whatever your meditation looks like. But I don’t know how we get to that part relationally without some of those basic skills of awareness and regulation. 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: Interesting. Like I’m, my mind is going to men as you’re talking about regulating physiology, regulating the nervous [00:20:00] system, which I agree, I think mindfulness.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: Is the foundation of self awareness and it gives you that leg up to figure out what’s going on in your body and to downregulate or relax when you need to, or at least give you a better shot. But it was interesting. I was talking to a male client yesterday and we were talking about how. Most of the men that I’ve worked with over the last 30 years because of how we’re socialized and because of one of the parts of that man box is you’re only as good as your last achievement.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: And part of it’s compete. Part of it’s do. So we’re always doing in an attempt to gain self-worth. And as soon as we stop doing, the voices catch up with us, those inner voices. And so what I find with a lot of the men that I work with is. They’ve forgotten how to relax that they’re in fight flight freeze to some extent, if you think of it on a one to 10 scale, even if it’s at a two or a three, they’re in fight, flight, freeze, fawn.[00:21:00] 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: The vast majority, if not all the time. So if that’s the case, it makes it really difficult to regulate yourself while in disagreement with your loved one. 

Joree Rose, LMFT, Couples Counselor: Which is why we’ve got to learn how to regulate ourselves outside of disagreement that we, if we don’t have that baseline to come. the brain and our body has the literal neural pathway built to know how to get there.

Joree Rose, LMFT, Couples Counselor: So you just completely validated what I was saying. We can’t do it without a baseline of a practice. 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: Just as a question for the listener, to gauge, can you truly relax? Can you, lay down or sit down, deepen your breathing and relax all the muscles in your body and bring your heart rate down.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: And, and most of the people that I talk to are like, Wow. I haven’t been able to do that for decades. 

Joree Rose, LMFT, Couples Counselor: So let me ask this question, cause I’m trying to relate it in a way that maybe men can most connect with [00:22:00] and put it into real life examples besides sitting on a cushion or lying down and doing that.

Joree Rose, LMFT, Couples Counselor: So let’s take a guy who works out a lot. So I would imagine you’re, running on the treadmill or Stairmaster or you pushing some heavy weights. That feeling of being activated, that’s what’s going to be like when you’re turned on, right? Everything is pumping. I’m trying to bring it back. 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: It’s well, I think the other Common experience is the addictive feeling we get from being on at work where we’re multitasking.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: We’re in a rush. We got more things to do than we have time to do it. It feels important. We know what is expected of us. We’re talking fast. We’re not taking breaks. We’re getting shit done. That’s, I think that’s a low level fight flight freeze response where, and we like it, it’s truly addictive because it’s also 

Joree Rose, LMFT, Couples Counselor: motivating.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: We’re distracted from ourselves in that we know that we have worth when we’re in it and we’re earning money. And so that’s, I think those two [00:23:00] are good examples of what it feels like to be in fight, flight, freeze at different levels. And both of those you can easily work into especially when you’re working out, right?

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: Like after you’ve done a set, focus on your breathing. 

Joree Rose, LMFT, Couples Counselor: That’s what I was trying to get back to, 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: right? 

Joree Rose, LMFT, Couples Counselor: That’s what I was trying to get to was how do you calm your body down after a hard workout? 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: You can do it after a set. That’s because that’s great training because the way the system is designed is to go on, off, on, off, on, off, not on for years.

Joree Rose, LMFT, Couples Counselor: No way. And I get that. And I think we have that clear, but I’m trying to get back to the guy who’s that all sounds great. Do I have experience ever having done that? So if. You go out for a run, you need to calm your body down. You don’t come out from a run. And generally I’m thinking don’t go into the right next thing.

Joree Rose, LMFT, Couples Counselor: You’ve got to get your heart rate down. So that might be a great entree point is look at the areas in which your heart rate is up for things you enjoy that aren’t stressful. That is still physical stress on your body. And what are [00:24:00] you doing? Already that you could harness. I think is my point. 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: Yeah. I think one of the things we’ve got to look at as men is what do we do for our pastimes hobbies or interests?

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: In other words, I think what we do is we go to work and then we come home and watch Monday night football. What happens when we watch football, our physiology spikes, we get angry at the ref, we get angry at our team. What I mean, in any sport, there’s more negative emotion than positive emotion, I would argue.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: What else do we do? We play, we game violent first person shooters. What else do we do? We watch UFC fighting. What else do we do? We watch boxing. What else do we do? We go hunting. What else do we do? We go on motorcycles. What else do we do? We’re going, we’re driving fast in the car. And so all the activities or most of them that we do.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: Are aimed at upping our physiology. 

Joree Rose, LMFT, Couples Counselor: I would say golf might keep it down to some extent.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: But see that I it’s interesting because I think it could, I don’t think it does. I think that’s one of the brilliance of like tiger woods, all [00:25:00] of his personal stuff aside, his dad taught him meditation and a lot of Eastern.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: Techniques to help him regulate his physiology in between shots. And the way I would argue that the extent to which he learned to do that was what made him spectacular. One of the, one of the things, and I think other golfers are trying to learn to do that. But most of the golfers that I. I’m going to their kind of weekend golfers, typically get really upset when they’re not playing up to par, which is most of the time.

Joree Rose, LMFT, Couples Counselor: I want to give guys the confidence that they can do this despite all the things. So I guess I was looking for what is the easiest way to start in things that they’re already doing? So that way, again, they can harness something that doesn’t feel so foreign. 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: That’s what I mean. One of the things I would say is if you’re at the gym, work on breathing deeply, work on tuning into your heart rate.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: Work on bringing your heart rate down after each set when, if you’re playing golf, work on deepening your breath, work on [00:26:00] focusing on nature and see if you can bring your heart rate and your breathing and your physiology down to a relaxed state in between shots. 

Joree Rose, LMFT, Couples Counselor: I’m even thinking about how do you bring your body back to a relaxed state after sex?

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: Yeah. Again, it’s, a lay there, it’s focusing on your breath and trying to bring your heart rate down and it takes practice, but it’s not that we have to, and you know this, but I’m, this is for the listener. It’s not that we have to practice mindfulness six hours a day, seven days a week. Most of the research has been done on 20 minutes a day, five days a week, but that 20 minutes doesn’t have to be consecutive.

Joree Rose, LMFT, Couples Counselor: And 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: so you can think about it as practicing and refocusing on your breath and being where your feet are or being present. In little one to two minute chunks throughout the day. So golf is a great opportunity to practice in between sets of the gym. Great opportunity to practice. 

Joree Rose, LMFT, Couples Counselor: The car drive home from work is a great place to practice that.

Joree Rose, LMFT, Couples Counselor: And if you don’t have a commute anymore, then, maybe go for a five minute walk. If you work [00:27:00] from home just to reset your nervous system before entering back in with your family. And I think all of what we’re seeing here is the defensiveness. The reactivity is Harder to access when you’re calm, when you’re calm, you’re not going to be as reactive, right?

Joree Rose, LMFT, Couples Counselor: So we’ve got to build more of that practice in to regulate when we’re activated, when we’re stressed and we’re overwhelmed and we’re anxious when we’re angry, that defensiveness and reactivity is going to be right at your fingertips. It’s not going to take very much for, someone to be reactive 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: when, and let me ask you this, what percentage of your clients would you say are overworked and too busy?

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: I know that’s not all your clients, but, 

Joree Rose, LMFT, Couples Counselor: I think define, what work is, I think for most moms that never ends. I work mostly with women, and so the sense of my to do list never ever ends. I’m just now, after 20 years of being a full time mom, [00:28:00] beginning to feel like, there’s not much I need to go do right now.

Joree Rose, LMFT, Couples Counselor: That’s amazing. And That’s the beauty of empty nesting and living with a partner who takes half the load with me, but not many people have that experience. And what I do see is especially a lot of women who stay busy. So as not to access their emotion, I’ve heard from so many women over the years. If I slow down, I’m going to realize how unhappy I am.

Joree Rose, LMFT, Couples Counselor: I knew someone once who would do P90X workouts starting at 1130 at night, because. That prevented them from getting in bed with their partner. I saw women who would go all day long without so much of a breath for herself, because if she tapped into who am I, what do I want? What do I need? That breakdown would be [00:29:00] talk about that emotional overwhelm.

Joree Rose, LMFT, Couples Counselor: So women have it too. Oh yeah. Women, definitely feel that and part of it’s the glorification of busyness. Part of it is, what does it mean? This is a conversation. I have a lot of moms of the quote, good mom, right? The good mom is one who does all of these things for their kids. When I would argue with a good mom is one who teaches the kids to be self sufficient so they can go off to college and live their life or out of the house, 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: their physiology too.

Joree Rose, LMFT, Couples Counselor: And, we’re just perpetuating a horrible cycle. And at the end of the day. I don’t know a ton of couples that are like really happy. I think they have moments of it, for sure. They might love their partners, but I don’t know that they always like them. I feel the difficulty in speaking our truth when things come up, they don’t know how to, be honest.

Joree Rose, LMFT, Couples Counselor: Yeah, for fear of reactivity, defensiveness, judgment, shutdown, emotional, physical, mental, spiritual punishment. There’s a lot of reasons we don’t. 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: Which brings us back to the beginning of the conversation, which is the idea [00:30:00] of love isn’t enough. And these, the thing that excites me about this approach is these are tools that if you and your partner are interested and curious, That these are tools that you can begin to master and incredibly vastly improve the quality and fulfillment of your relationship.

Joree Rose, LMFT, Couples Counselor: So let’s give a plug for what a happy relationship looks like, because I would say, you and I have been together almost nine years and we were really happy for a very long time, despite our challenges. Despite our challenges that we’ve been happy for quite a long time. Would you agree?

Joree Rose, LMFT, Couples Counselor: Absolutely. Okay. And I would then argue that since our breakup and getting back together, we are how much happier? How do we quantify that? 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: Geez. Part of it is the trust went from 90 percent to 110%, which that was, and again, that [00:31:00] wasn’t about you for me. That was about my past.

Joree Rose, LMFT, Couples Counselor: But I guess what I want to be able to say is.

Joree Rose, LMFT, Couples Counselor: We were happy. We had frequent sex. We rarely argued when we got stuck. I don’t know. It was not horrible. Sometimes it was big fights 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: two or three times, but they weren’t big, I would say they were extended, 

Joree Rose, LMFT, Couples Counselor: but I would say what we were experiencing prior to our breakup was a good generalized happiness.

Joree Rose, LMFT, Couples Counselor: And now since having done the work and by doing the work, going to therapy, looking at our own. Our own inner demons, our own wounds, doing our own work to heal, making the repairs on our stuff with each other in the past, really opening up vulnerable conversation, communication. What do we have now? Let’s give the before and after.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: So now and some of this we had before, but I think we just took it to the next level after the breakup. And so I think one of the [00:32:00] things that was really helpful was our self awareness. What am I feeling? What am I thinking? What are my values? What are my hopes? What are my dreams? 

Joree Rose, LMFT, Couples Counselor: And I think we both always had that, but how that showed up to make for the better relationship.

Joree Rose, LMFT, Couples Counselor: I guess I want to keep what can someone say? I want that kind of the whole one Harry, I’m at Sally. I’ll have what she’s having. 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: How 

Joree Rose, LMFT, Couples Counselor: does that translate to the average listener? If 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: I’m aware of my emotions, then I’ve got greater empathy for yours. I can get more specific in what it is you’re feeling.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: So I can tell what you’re feeling and I can respond more appropriately. So it makes me more aware of your needs as well as your feelings. 

Joree Rose, LMFT, Couples Counselor: Which in turn will make me feel my favorite three words seen, heard, and validated, but not just seen, heard, and validated. I will feel. 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: Yeah. And safe cannot be overstated the importance of safety and security in a relationship.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: I really think it’s the fundamental thing that we are shooting for is to make our partner feel safe. And I think, we talk a lot about masculinity, femininity, man box. And I think [00:33:00] that. the greatest things we can do as men in terms of exercising and displaying our masculinity is to show our gentleness.

Joree Rose, LMFT, Couples Counselor: With 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: our loved ones. 

Joree Rose, LMFT, Couples Counselor: Yeah. 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: That to me is the ultimate. 

Joree Rose, LMFT, Couples Counselor: Yeah. So working towards creating greater emotional safety on both sides, vulnerability and responding. If I get angry, which is rare now, but if I were to get upset. You’re likely very first response would be thank you for sharing your anger with me.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: Yeah. Or I can see, I’d validate first. I can see that you’re really upset. I can see that you’re pissed off. 

Joree Rose, LMFT, Couples Counselor: So that again, creates a safety to express ourself without fear of consequence. Okay. So what are the other benefits we’ve gotten? 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: I don’t think there’s any game playing and I don’t think we’ve ever had game playing.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: I think there, there is a little bit, the very couple of weeks, first couple of weeks of a relationship, but after that, I think there should be. You’re shooting for transparent, honest, authentic communication.[00:34:00] 

Joree Rose, LMFT, Couples Counselor: And once we have that, I guess what I’m trying to get at is there is no walking on eggshells. There is no topics that feel like, Oh, I don’t know that I can bring that up. We not, but things might get uncomfortable, but there’s no repercussion for any of that. And our intimacy has skyrocketed. 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: Yeah.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: It’s unlike anything I’ve seen. 

Joree Rose, LMFT, Couples Counselor: And intimacy being not just sex, but just 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: a nice part of that, you 

Joree Rose, LMFT, Couples Counselor: know, people want to be able to feel more connected during sex. You got to work at all the connections every little bit throughout the day. And so I think we went from a good relationship to a great relationship.

Joree Rose, LMFT, Couples Counselor: And that’s what I want to sell to people. Not like I’m selling you something, but honestly that’s what I want to portray of. We both feel confident in positive intentions of the other. We both feel [00:35:00] supported on our individual. Ventures and friendships. 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: Let me ask you this because I think one of the things has to do with paper cuts.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: So how do you think, how do you feel as far as the paper cuts, those emotional hurts in our relationship? Currently our old ones currently. Or yeah, are you holding on to any, 

Joree Rose, LMFT, Couples Counselor: I don’t have any, there’s no current paper cuts and it’s rare when the thought of an old one arises, but in the past, if I were to feel hurt.

Joree Rose, LMFT, Couples Counselor: I think I would have held it in a little bit more because I wouldn’t want to like rock the boat. And now I can very safely and easily share. Oh, I just had a thought about something. And that kind of bummed me out on that hurt. And you can join with me and say, yeah, I get that hurt. Come here. Let me give you a hug.

Joree Rose, LMFT, Couples Counselor: And then it’s done. 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: Yeah. And I love you. I think I love you. Some of those intrusive thoughts, you need reassurance. We people need reassurance, right? Not just you. 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: But I would agree. I think that. I don’t feel like there’s any old paper cuts that we’re holding [00:36:00] on to, which is pretty incredible 

Joree Rose, LMFT, Couples Counselor: because we had some big ones.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: Huh. And we know also, and you guys have heard me say this, the listeners heard me say this, that relationships don’t end typically because of an affair or something massive. They end because of an accumulation of those paper cuts, the small hurts, angers, annoyances being ignored and that stuff accumulates.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: And then your perception of your partner goes from positive to negative. 

Joree Rose, LMFT, Couples Counselor: Yeah. Yeah, I think. Without, feeling like I’m bragging I’m so proud of our relationship because I think we are modeling what people want. And, we went through a couple of years where it was hard. And if we can do it, anyone can do it.

Joree Rose, LMFT, Couples Counselor: But going back to what do I have to do to get there? You got to have the motivation and the motivation can’t simply be my partner’s making me do this. That’s helpful. And you got to find something internally to say, how does this really benefit my overall life when I do this? 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: Yeah. And one of the things I like in response to that is, [00:37:00] listen, I don’t, I’m not that attached to this relationship.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: If I’m talking to a couple, this relationship may or may not last. And yeah. You’re going to need to learn these skills. If you want a happy and fulfilling relationship, hopefully it’s this one, 

Joree Rose, LMFT, Couples Counselor: but if 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: it’s not this one, you’re going to have to learn the skills for the next one. So you better get on board.

Joree Rose, LMFT, Couples Counselor: And one thing we haven’t even mentioned is how does this benefit you as a parent? So if you’re a father. And you get to learn these schools that now you engage with your kids. So if you are a father of a son or sons, you are now role modeling, a healthy masculinity that they can then begin to see in real time being practiced.

Joree Rose, LMFT, Couples Counselor: And if you practice these with your daughter or daughters, they begin to experience what it feels like for a man to see validate and hear them. 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: Yeah. And it gives your daughters. The blueprint for what they’re looking for in a potential mate. And we’ve done a lot of work on that with our three [00:38:00] girls.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: And you know what my daughter Molly told me a few weeks ago, she was like, yeah, I really have to thank you and Jory because you made me believe in love. Again, you showed me that a good relationship is possible. 

Joree Rose, LMFT, Couples Counselor: I love that. Which is a 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: beautiful compliment. 

Joree Rose, LMFT, Couples Counselor: Yeah. I remember when we first started dating, you would bring me flowers.

Joree Rose, LMFT, Couples Counselor: More often than you have in recent years. That might’ve been a little dig about like flowers every now and then. Okay. Okay. Anyhow, that wasn’t the point. He used to bring me flowers early on and more frequently and would always have a little note attached. And I think we both consciously agreed to keep the note out on the counter.

Joree Rose, LMFT, Couples Counselor: So my daughters could see the note to see, this is what it looks like when a man. Loves you or adores group. It’s recorded recording you or wants to do something kind. We really wanted to make that implicit explicit. Over the years, it’s been a little more explicit 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: And the beautiful thing is watching them over.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: Oh, it’s been almost nine years. [00:39:00] And so I hope that you and grow to understand their worth. Yeah. As beautiful, talented, smart women. 

Joree Rose, LMFT, Couples Counselor: Yeah. And that ties back to how we have shown up as parents by. Modeling our relationship. Coupled with utilizing these tools with them as well. 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: But going back to this question, I think, one of the other things that I love about our relationship.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: And I think you’ve grown tremendously here is our ability to be playful with one another. 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: It helps. It’s number one, it’s more fun and we can laugh more and be silly more. But number two, I think we can. We can call each other a name when we’re mildly annoyed, which helps with the annoyance, but it’s joking.

Joree Rose, LMFT, Couples Counselor: But there’s some truth to it that it’s 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: both. 

Joree Rose, LMFT, Couples Counselor: It can alleviate a little pressure. It’s like a little mini earthquake without a big one, right? It just lets off some of the steam. And I would never, I 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: would never call you a name in anger. 

Joree Rose, LMFT, Couples Counselor: No, 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: that’s totally different. 

Joree Rose, LMFT, Couples Counselor: That’s totally different. 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: But to have the permission, and we’ve talked about this, have the permission to call each [00:40:00] other.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: Asshole then or whatever it is, right? It’s helpful. 

Joree Rose, LMFT, Couples Counselor: Cards. 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: Yeah. 

Joree Rose, LMFT, Couples Counselor: I swear you, especially 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: when we’re playing cards. 

Joree Rose, LMFT, Couples Counselor: Yeah. It’s I go, I get into swearing Tourette’s at times, but I don’t think I ever would have felt that safe before to, to do some of that playful name calling and, I have to say, I have some family members.

Joree Rose, LMFT, Couples Counselor: One of the marriages that I really look up to and really revere as a strong married couple. Their banter is fantastic, but from the outside for somebody who doesn’t have playfulness in their life, it feels mean until you realize, no, there’s actually. That’s love. There’s a lot of safety in that. It’s not mean if it’s ill intended and mean spirited, that’s different, but a playful tone intention of not hurting and harming.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: Yeah. Yeah. And I think one of the other things we do really well is accept, and we [00:41:00] touched on this, but accept each other’s emotions. And you started this long ago. It took me 

Joree Rose, LMFT, Couples Counselor: more years 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: to believe it just cause I’d never had that experience before, but I think we do a great job of accepting.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: That emotions are, they simply are, they’re not rational. They’re not wrong. And the more quickly we can see here and validate the other person’s emotions, the more quickly they go away. And that, part of that includes listening without defense, like not defending what I was thinking, what I was planning, what I was trying to do.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: And that takes a little bit of skill too, but that’s a huge. It’s a huge game changer. 

Joree Rose, LMFT, Couples Counselor: It is. And I think it goes back to that old adage that we are not thinking beings that feel we are feeling beings that think right. 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: Antonio Damasio. 

Joree Rose, LMFT, Couples Counselor: So when we recognize that our emotions are the core of us, it’s our heart center.

Joree Rose, LMFT, Couples Counselor: That’s. It’s not our rationality that makes up who we are. 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: We’re animals at some level. We’re [00:42:00] animals. And I, I think we have this illusion that we’re rational and intellectual and analytical and smart. And I think that really works against us. I think, that I was talking to a man a couple of days ago about how we over identify with the thinker in our head.

Joree Rose, LMFT, Couples Counselor: Yeah. 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: And it. We’re so much more than that. 

Joree Rose, LMFT, Couples Counselor: We’re so much more. And we got to allow our partner to be human, which means making mistakes and offering grace and forgiveness. 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: And we struggled with that one for a bit. I think, I think we expected each other to be emotionally perfect at some level. And I remember you saying to me we’d get in a disagreement and 

Joree Rose, LMFT, Couples Counselor: you’re gonna say, 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: You’re the anger management expert.

Joree Rose, LMFT, Couples Counselor: Yeah. 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: Like how come you can’t, manage your anger 

Joree Rose, LMFT, Couples Counselor: or I know I would be like, cause I’m human. 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: I’m still gonna get angry. I’m still hurt. 

Joree Rose, LMFT, Couples Counselor: And I would say you teach the shit. I know that was a dig. I’m sorry. That’s okay. We’ve also, 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: we’ve also talked about that and you don’t do that anymore. So I don’t 

Joree Rose, LMFT, Couples Counselor: do that at all.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: And I get it too. I think there is this magical [00:43:00] thinking that we have of This shouldn’t happen or because you’re an expert in this. You shouldn’t feel this. 

Joree Rose, LMFT, Couples Counselor: Renee Brown’s great at that. When she talks about all of her research that she struggles in most of the things that she researched and probably why she’s so curious about it.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: And I think that’s one of the things I’ll share with a lot of clients, right? That humanity, that part of me that still feels deeply is one of the most frustrating parts of me. And we’ll say that sometimes like fucking humanity for that very reason that it’s I’m sorry.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: Like I lost my temper. 

Joree Rose, LMFT, Couples Counselor: Yeah. Yeah. I think one of the things that, for couples who really want to get closer is not just have the culture of gratitude and appreciation, but I don’t want to understate that, but all of this has to be named specifically because I think for many couples becoming closer, becoming happier is conceptual.

Joree Rose, LMFT, Couples Counselor: And I think unless [00:44:00] we have some marked route markers some actual like talking points, destinations, we’re trying to reach as a couple. It’s really hard to know where we’re going. If we don’t have that roadmap of what is being closer to you mean? Cause I could, if we’re just say, if I said to you, Hey, John, I really want to feel close in our relationship, that’s really vague.

Joree Rose, LMFT, Couples Counselor: So we’d have to come upon a shared common language of understanding. When I say closer, what do when you say closer? What do you mean? And what would it look like for us to take the steps to get there? The only way couples are going to get there is if they have check ins with each other. And we know 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: most couples don’t do that.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: When you got to put language on this stuff. I think you got to share with your partner. What is it you’re trying to get better at? Like when I talk to men and I’m not doing couples work with them, I’m just seeing the man individually. I’m like, go share with your wife. One or two of the ideas that we’ve talked about today, one or two of the tools that we’re working on, because she needs to see that you’re putting in the effort and [00:45:00] that’s the best way that you can do it.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: So don’t just go home. And when she says, oh, how was your talk with John? Oh, it was fine. Worst thing you can do. 

Joree Rose, LMFT, Couples Counselor: Like 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: you don’t have to share what you shared with me. and say, But share what I shared with you in terms of tools, because then you can both ideally agree that. Yeah, this would be great. Let’s work towards this.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: Or, let’s work towards being more appreciative and grateful to one another for all the things that we’re doing around the house, for example, and then it becomes a self reinforcing positive upward spiral. 

Joree Rose, LMFT, Couples Counselor: Yeah. I think at the end of the day, I want couples to know. Being happier as possible, being more connected as possible, learning and growing in how to have the best relationship for each of you at this stage of your life, because look who you are when you first met and dated and fell in love and who you are in the height and midst of raising kids and building careers and who you are, at empty nesting, you’re going to have different needs.

Joree Rose, LMFT, Couples Counselor: You’re going to have different [00:46:00] abilities. Capabilities, communication styles, and so you got to be able to grow with life and the stage that you’re in without checking in. It’s no wonder couples get to empty nesting stage and are like, we haven’t talked in like 15 years. 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: And growth is the only constant in life.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: And yet, so many of us are so resistant to 

Joree Rose, LMFT, Couples Counselor: it. 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: And it makes life way more difficult than it has to be. And to use a metaphor, what would you rather be? The stagnant pond with no water coming into it, no water leaving it with algae and mosquitoes on it. You 

Joree Rose, LMFT, Couples Counselor: can 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: be the clear mountain stream that’s running.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: That’s got water. You can drink out of it. That supports life with animals and birds. And that is constantly changing. What do you want to be? 

Joree Rose, LMFT, Couples Counselor: Yeah. And I see a lot of resistance in the natural growth and change that happens. And so [00:47:00] we’ve got to create the safety and naming it, talking about it, encouraging, and it comes down to scheduling time for it.

Joree Rose, LMFT, Couples Counselor: Like we’re not going to, we’re not going to just this time is not going to come to us. We’ve got to consciously create the space to prioritize. This is important enough to me to give time and attention to you would schedule the dentist. You schedule a time with a friend, you schedule when you go to the gym or a meeting.

Joree Rose, LMFT, Couples Counselor: And I like this idea, especially from the male point of view is treat your relationship as if you’re the CEO of the, of your household, CEO of your company, you and your partner are co CEOs. You would never. Go into a business in which you had no experience training qualifications for and expect it to be 100 percent successful.

Joree Rose, LMFT, Couples Counselor: You would need to be willing to be open to consultants to be open to trainings. That’s the language I want men to hear, so that they can see oh yeah I want a successful company, what do I have to do to build greater success. [00:48:00] Yeah. 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: And they do that. Most of the men I talked to have been developing themselves at work.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: They just fail to bring those tools home or they fail to do the same for their relationship and their parents. 

Joree Rose, LMFT, Couples Counselor: Which is why I’m trying to use that analogy of see it in the same capacity so that you don’t see yourself as weak. What a guy who is trying to build, greater connections with their employees or their bosses or their teammates call themselves weak for trying to network.

Joree Rose, LMFT, Couples Counselor: I’m going to go talk to more people and learn about more things so I can climb the ladder. 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: And so part of this is about having the humility to know what you don’t know. And you wouldn’t, to your point, if you bring in a consultant, that’s not weakness. That’s not embarrassing. That’s just good business.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: So in any case, 

Joree Rose, LMFT, Couples Counselor: check out our new podcast, love isn’t enough. And we are really excited because it’s not just the new podcast, love isn’t enough, but we’re really building out what we hope to be the focus and core of our [00:49:00] business for years to come. Which is supporting couples on this journey.

Joree Rose, LMFT, Couples Counselor: And in our model, I work with the women individually, John works with the men individually, and we come together to do couples work because we believe you can’t separate out that self work from the couple’s work that if you’re only focusing on your arguments and your fights and repairs and building new tools without doing the individual work to see what’s preventing access to that couple’s work, I think you can get marginally successful, but not really the full.

Joree Rose, LMFT, Couples Counselor: The full happiness that I think we have seen the possibility for. 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: Yeah. And one of the things that really convinced me of this direction was the findings of positive psychology over the last 20 years. And, Christopher Peterson, who’s passed now, but he once said other people matter, George Vailant, who was in charge of the adult development study at Harvard, which followed a group of men and women for.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: 80 years at this point, the findings of that in terms of [00:50:00] what makes for a thriving, happy, successful life. Is love. Full stop. So it’s all about connection. It’s all about relationship without the connection in the relationship. It doesn’t matter how much money you make. It doesn’t matter how successful you are in business.

Joree Rose, LMFT, Couples Counselor: You 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: won’t be happy. 

Joree Rose, LMFT, Couples Counselor: They might think they are. 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: Even Steve jobs. He died alone and he regretted his path at the end. It’s one of the great regrets of people that are dying. So anyway, thank you for your time and attention. And listening to us ramble on about relationships. 

Joree Rose, LMFT, Couples Counselor: We also have a new Instagram account.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: Yes. Love. Isn’t enough 33. 

Joree Rose, LMFT, Couples Counselor: Yes. And that will be a focus of relationship tips and tools. And of course the new podcast. And we also have our year long masterclass series that no matter what point of the year it is, you get access to these amazing. Workshops that are included in the areas that we [00:51:00] see couples getting most stuck in preventing that connection that we’re talking about.

Joree Rose, LMFT, Couples Counselor: But it’s not just the class, but there’s handouts and exercises and prompts and partner practices because We don’t learn by conceptualizing change. We learn by doing, and it’s just like going to the gym. If you want to have bigger muscles, you got to do those bicep curls. So everything we’re offering is like little bicep curls for your heart and brain to get stronger.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: And you can find out more about all of that at love. Isn’t enough. net. 

Joree Rose, LMFT, Couples Counselor: Thanks for having me as your guest, John. 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: Always a pleasure. And that’s it for this episode of the evolved caveman podcast. If you liked this episode, please be sure to rate review and share with your friends. If you didn’t like it, you don’t got to do a damn thing.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: Thanks so much. Until next time.