Top Marriage Therapists, Dr. John Schinnerer & Joree Rose, LMFT, Discuss Pros and Cons of Intensive Marriage Therapy
Is Intensive Marriage Therapy Right For You?
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If you’d prefer to read through the transcript of the show, it has been included below for your ongoing education, growth and relational happiness.
Intensive Marriage Therapy For Greater Relational Happiness
Dr. John Schinnerer, Marriage Therapist: [00:00:00] Hey, everybody. This is Dr. John back with another episode of the Evolved Caveman podcast. And I am here today with my lovely and talented partner in life and love, Joree Rose. Hello, sweetheart.
Joree Rose, Marriage Therapist: Hello, love.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Marriage Therapist: And today we are going to talk about why intensive therapy seems to be one of the better ways to deal with problems in relationship.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Marriage Therapist: And so we are subtitling this. Love isn’t enough to market as one of our new up and coming entrees into relationship coaching, relationship counseling, and to highlight our new site, love isn’t enough. net.
Joree Rose, Marriage Therapist: Yeah. Thank you for so much for sharing all that information. I am so excited for what we are building and creating in the relationship coaching world, bringing both of our long careers in.
Joree Rose, Marriage Therapist: The field of mental health, coupled with our passion for [00:01:00] serving others and helping them live happier lives, but really bringing our backgrounds together, combined with our personal relationship experience and insights and growth into helping others. really heal in their relationships. So it’s exciting.
Joree Rose, Marriage Therapist: So any of you listening out there, who is sensing your relationship could get to another level or another area of healing or depth or connection. I’m excited you’re listening because we’ve got a lot more to share on this.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Marriage Therapist: Yeah. And as, as you pointed out to me earlier today, this podcast is being recorded on the one year anniversary of you and I going to see Charlie and Linda Bloom in Santa Cruz who are excellent at what they do.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Marriage Therapist: And we went to see them for a two day, 12 hour intensive couples counseling session. So it was six hours a day for two days.
Joree Rose, Marriage Therapist: As I like to always do, and you always appreciate the way I do can I give some context to that in case [00:02:00] someone’s listening who hasn’t listened to any of our joint past episodes or don’t know some of our history.
Joree Rose, Marriage Therapist: We have been together for almost eight and a half years now and engaged for almost half of that length of time as well. And while when we first met, we knew this was different. This is the. Person I’ve been looking for the relationship. I wanted to build. We still had challenges and especially as two therapists that really fucked with our heads a bit.
Joree Rose, Marriage Therapist: I, at least for me, it’s Oh, it’s frustrating
Dr. John Schinnerer, Marriage Therapist: as hell. It
Joree Rose, Marriage Therapist: was horrible. We teach this stuff. Why can’t we do this? And mounting small little paper cuts that grew into some bigger wounds and our relationship led to a short, but devastatingly painful breakup for both of us. And when one of the points of our challenges, I had asked you to go to therapy and that really triggered you.
Joree Rose, Marriage Therapist: And that frustrated me too. If [00:03:00] you’re a therapist, don’t you want to go to therapy?
Dr. John Schinnerer, Marriage Therapist: And I think, at that point I was in a depressive state.
Joree Rose, Marriage Therapist: You were. And
Dr. John Schinnerer, Marriage Therapist: so I was having a hard time getting out of my own black and white thinking. I was having a hard time seeing the good in the relationship and I think I was highly Sensitive and defensive.
Joree Rose, Marriage Therapist: Yeah. I love the story and I’m just going to share this for a good little comedic relief as we enter into the intensive therapy work. But when we did that first therapy session way before we met Charlie and Linda, we were sitting in the lobby of the therapist’s office and I like things to be orderly and aligned and organized.
Joree Rose, Marriage Therapist: And I see the lampshade in front of me that was crooked where the seam of the lampshade was facing out. Into the room versus perhaps towards the back of the wall. So I got up and I shifted the lampshade and I thought, Oh shit. He’s going to use this against me in therapy. Why did I do [00:04:00] that? And it was evidence of the negative lens you were seeing through that.
Joree Rose, Marriage Therapist: When the therapist first asked. Why did you choose Jory? What do you appreciate about her in this relationship? And her first response was. My list of
Dr. John Schinnerer, Marriage Therapist: negatives
Joree Rose, Marriage Therapist: that started with the lampshade and I wanted to share with that because six months later when we were working at getting back together after really only haven’t been broken up for about six weeks and I said, okay, I need to go with therapy like that’s a non negotiable for me and you took the initiative to find Charlie and Linda, which I was so happy with given the challenge of the first attempt To go get support.
Joree Rose, Marriage Therapist: That’s why I gave that previous lampshade story, because it was a really big deal to me that not only did you find Charlie and Linda, but what you came back to me was, Hey, so [00:05:00] they’ve come highly recommended. And by the way, are you up for a two day, six hour per day, 12 hour intensive. And given the resistance of a one off two hour therapy session to me that you took that initiative and had that courage and dedication to sit through 12 hours of therapy over two days, that was almost enough for me to say he’s committed.
Joree Rose, Marriage Therapist: He’s in, he’s willing.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Marriage Therapist: Let’s back up a little bit because I think that dynamic that we got into or that I was in. I think it’s probably more common than we realize. In other words, I think many couples, and we’ve seen this many times, right? Like us and other couples, when you start to date, typically you see your new partner is all positive.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Marriage Therapist: They can do no wrong. They walk on water. Their breath doesn’t smell in the morning. Like it’s just, [00:06:00] it’s Oh my God, she’s amazing. Rose
Joree Rose, Marriage Therapist: colored lenses.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Marriage Therapist: Yeah. Is that a pun? Drury Rose. Anyway. But over time, those paper cuts accumulate. The paper cuts of little hurts, annoyances, resentments being ignored.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Marriage Therapist: And so your lens goes from all positive to mostly or all negative. And I think I was at that point where, and I didn’t even really have an awareness of it. I just knew I was stuck. And what was hard
Joree Rose, Marriage Therapist: for me was I knew you didn’t have an awareness of that. And because of the depressive cycle you were in, you couldn’t hear my feedback without defensiveness or externalizing.
Joree Rose, Marriage Therapist: So that was really. A hard
Dr. John Schinnerer, Marriage Therapist: point. And think about how many couples are in that state going by the time they go to therapy, couples counseling, and then one or both of them are so depressive, so resigned, so disbelieving that change is possible, that couples therapy is [00:07:00] ineffective.
Joree Rose, Marriage Therapist: And we also know from research that couples usually wait about six years before getting into therapy.
Joree Rose, Marriage Therapist: So those paper cuts and those wounds really accumulate. and give more confirmation bias of nothing’s going to work. So how often are they really open minded when they actually get there?
Dr. John Schinnerer, Marriage Therapist: And part you, you mentioned confirmation bias. And I think that was one of my issues was that I had this negative lens over my eyes.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Marriage Therapist: And then I started looking for things to confirm my negative outlook,
Joree Rose, Marriage Therapist: right?
Dr. John Schinnerer, Marriage Therapist: Like the, moving the, adjusting the lamp in the waiting room was evidence to me of rigid thinking. And it just, it’s, that be careful what you look for because you just might find it. And so if you’re always looking for what’s wrong, you’re going to find it.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Marriage Therapist: And that just hastens the exit of the relationship.
Joree Rose, Marriage Therapist: And then you add in the fear of [00:08:00] going to therapy in which the therapist’s job is to refute your confirmation bias. And if you’re not open and willing to look for the evidence against. Right then it, it keeps you stuck and you a desire to stay stuck in the narrative.
Joree Rose, Marriage Therapist: I always ask the question, how is it serving you to stay stuck? Yeah. I love that question. To journey forward is to get unstuck. Then why don’t people get unstuck more often? And it’s often easier to stay stuck than it is to get unstuck because the, can I just say that to get unstuck requires self-reflection of what’s my role in this?
Joree Rose, Marriage Therapist: What do I need to look at? Because it’s really easy to externalize. And we also have to be willing to shift our narrative, to shift our viewpoint.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Marriage Therapist: And I think along that point, I was really, at that point in time, a very typical male. Because that session, and we only had one because of me, did not go well.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Marriage Therapist: And [00:09:00] it was embarrassing to me.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Marriage Therapist: I knew I fumbled the ball and yet I couldn’t get past my own negative, uncomfortable emotions to really get to a deeper level. So I was stuck in anger fueled by, probably a depressive state, some embarrassment, some guilt, some shame.
Joree Rose, Marriage Therapist: And what you later discovered was shame, that embarrassment around the, or the challenge of getting through some of those difficult emotional states.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Marriage Therapist: Because I think one of my biggest challenges has always been managing those negative emotions at The most difficult times.
Joree Rose, Marriage Therapist: And one of the things that, and we’re jumping a little back and forth in timeline that we’ve discovered. And I think my biggest challenge was I knew that some of those things leading to those experiences that were very present for you.
Joree Rose, Marriage Therapist: It wasn’t about me. It was stuff from your childhood or from [00:10:00] your marriage and those wounds were being activated by something I may have done, but they weren’t. caused by me. Therefore, I couldn’t be the one to heal them at the deeper level, which is, bringing it back to our present work that we’ve created in love isn’t enough.
Joree Rose, Marriage Therapist: Is recognizing relational therapy, relational work, the tools, the skills are only as effective as you doing your own inner work. And that’s what we were able to, I think, recognize by the time we went to Charlie and Linda of this isn’t just about she’s rigid thinking she’s going to fix the lampshade.
Joree Rose, Marriage Therapist: Then that’s going to translate to maybe she’s going to nitpick me and I expect perfection. There’s a lot of ways it could, how does it really affect you and the relationship and seeing for me, what turning the lampshade meant for you and looking at other areas in my life in [00:11:00] which, what are my expectations unrealistic?
Joree Rose, Marriage Therapist: What am I being rigid in my thinking around, or my inability is one of the phrases you often say, being open to your influence. And it went both ways because the irony was you were quite rigid in your thinking at that time. At that
Dr. John Schinnerer, Marriage Therapist: time, for sure. Yeah. And let’s contrast kind of our experience with that first, what was that?
Dr. John Schinnerer, Marriage Therapist: A one or two hour session. Was
Joree Rose, Marriage Therapist: two hours.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Marriage Therapist: Versus the intensive with Charlie and Linda, because I think there’s some. Illuminating points to be made there. For example, one of the, one of the drawbacks of typical couples counseling, which is an hour or two hours is you’re working on the surface.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Marriage Therapist: You’re not getting very deep cause you don’t have the time to go very deep. Generally. And the other thing that’s interesting about it is. The issues just get brought up. The uncomfortable, negative emotions get stirred up. [00:12:00] And then you’re, it’s about time to leave. And you’ve got to go home in the car with this person.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Marriage Therapist: And that also
Joree Rose, Marriage Therapist: was stuck. That was an hour away too. So we were stuck in a horrible car drive home, but even before that, cause that’s the, very obvious difference of a longer session versus a shorter session, but right off the bat, and we see this generally speaking. So I apologize if the listener.
Joree Rose, Marriage Therapist: It doesn’t resonate with this part, but from a general state, usually the women are quote, dragging the men into therapy. So right off the bat, the husband or partner is felt to be on the defense. And I know that therapy session scared the fucking shit out of you.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Marriage Therapist: It did.
Joree Rose, Marriage Therapist: And you didn’t want to be there.
Joree Rose, Marriage Therapist: You were willing to go, but you didn’t want to be there. Whereas with Charlie and Linda, you were ready to take, you took that initiative. So you were ready to say, Hey, I’m not willing to lose this relationship. I lost it for [00:13:00] a short period of time. I will do everything I can to get it back. So my willingness to show up was very different.
Joree Rose, Marriage Therapist: As well.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Marriage Therapist: And that’s one of the things I like about the model we’ve created is because I think typically couples go into couples counseling and more often than not, you’ve got a female counselor, which most men already going in are going to be defensive, maybe a little bit depressive, maybe a little bit annoyed, if not downright angry.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Marriage Therapist: And then they’re going to pretty quickly, I think, feel ganged up on whatever the truth is. I think if you’ve got that negative lens over your eyes, you’re going to see. You’re going to feel like it’s two against one. And that’s not a great recipe for success. We’re trying to reduce defensiveness, not incite it.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Marriage Therapist: And so for our model, what I love about this model we’ve created is not only are we working on individual work and the relational work simultaneously, which we think is an absolute must, but we’ve also got a male and a female therapist. So I can meet with the [00:14:00] husband, you can meet with the wife, we build rapport with them.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Marriage Therapist: So when we go into. The couples session with all four of us, everyone has someone in their corner that can speak for them or defend them or explain what they were thinking or feeling, which I know at times in the past, I would get emotionally flooded and had a hard time speaking in some of these emotionally charged conversations.
Joree Rose, Marriage Therapist: Yeah. This model is really supportive. And especially for men who are resistant to therapy, you build great rapport with men because you are very much masculine and very much emotionally aware communicative. So you get to highlight that they can still be manly and feel deeply you role model that which.
Joree Rose, Marriage Therapist: Men, I think, need to see both because I think that’s one of the fears of therapy. If I get too emotional, will I still be seen as masculine? If I, will I look weak? Will I look insecure? How do I manage some of those man boxed? Narratives that [00:15:00] prevent them from feeling safe to go deeper.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Marriage Therapist: Yeah, like that fear of men that you and I have talked about, that if I scratch the scab, it’s going to start bleeding and I’ll never be able to get it to stop.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Marriage Therapist: In other words, if I tap into how I’m really feeling, it’s going to overtake me. It’s going to overwhelm me. I won’t be able to control it. It’s going to come out all over the place in my life, which isn’t true, but it’s a fear.
Joree Rose, Marriage Therapist: So coming back to the therapy model and what our experience was, That first two hour therapy session, especially beginning in therapy when we’re coming in all charged and high full of emotion, it’s hard to go back to the beginning of the relationship when it was ease and flow and deep connection because you’re not in that state and yet two hours or even just one hour is going to leave you feeling probably worse.
Joree Rose, Marriage Therapist: And I’ve got to wait a whole week or two to
Dr. John Schinnerer, Marriage Therapist: be able to,
Joree Rose, Marriage Therapist: I’ve got some ideas,
Dr. John Schinnerer, Marriage Therapist: I
Joree Rose, Marriage Therapist: was just going to say,
Dr. John Schinnerer, Marriage Therapist: [00:16:00] it’s a hard opener, right? It puts you in a positive, emotional state. It’s a connector. I, it’s. It just crossed my mind.
Joree Rose, Marriage Therapist: Yeah,
Dr. John Schinnerer, Marriage Therapist: but yeah let’s talk about, our experience in the intensive and how that was different and how we see the difference in the two models.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Marriage Therapist: What we see is the differences.
Joree Rose, Marriage Therapist: So let’s go back to where I was expressing gratitude for you for taking the initiative to finding them. And that was really big for me. And so I’m going to say it again. Thank you. Because that your willingness to sit through 12 hours of therapy over two days, It’s really was a massive commitment to me in showing me you are worth going through this fire with.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Marriage Therapist: Yeah. I’m willing to fight for you.
Joree Rose, Marriage Therapist: And that’s one of the most powerful things you as my partner could have shown me, not just said, but shown me.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Marriage Therapist: Speaking of which, can I jump in there? Because I really think along those lines, one of the most. [00:17:00] And I want people listening out there, I want you listener, you the listener, to be aware of this.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Marriage Therapist: I think one of the single most loving, most devoted acts in relationship is being willing to look at yourself and being willing to make changes for the betterment of the relationship. And so when you see that, if you see that in your relationship, make a big deal of it. Express gratitude, express appreciation, do it repeatedly.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Marriage Therapist: Because it’s hard and it’s scary, especially for men, I guess for women too, but women are more socialized in that direction.
Joree Rose, Marriage Therapist: And it’s really easy. We hear this all the time. If only they would stop doing X, Y, or Z I’ll be better. It’s never, I wonder what I could do for myself. that would shift their response or reaction to me?
Joree Rose, Marriage Therapist: Or what could I do to help him or her be less defensive when I communicate? It’s always stopping. So defensive. And
Dr. John Schinnerer, Marriage Therapist: that’s key. The idea that you just brought [00:18:00] up of taking radical accountability for one’s own stuff,
Joree Rose, Marriage Therapist: right?
Dr. John Schinnerer, Marriage Therapist: One’s own emotions, one’s own words. That’s huge. We got to stop externalizing the onto the other.
Joree Rose, Marriage Therapist: And as we’re teasing this apart, it really Makes me truly honor each and every one of my clients and our clients who show up with the willingness and courage. This is really hard work and some people come to therapy and really just want someone to be listened. And just, have someone listen to them and share in their story and that’s healing and that’s hopeful.
Joree Rose, Marriage Therapist: And that’s also not going to move the needle on change generally.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Marriage Therapist: And that’s very difficult work because it takes courage and it’s also some of the most rewarding work you can do.
Joree Rose, Marriage Therapist: Oh, a hundred percent. A hundred percent. Because that
Dr. John Schinnerer, Marriage Therapist: relationship, that primary romantic relationship is so incredibly important to your overall happiness.
Joree Rose, Marriage Therapist: Yeah.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Marriage Therapist: And [00:19:00] your success, your satisfaction with life, like if things aren’t going well at home, it’s not going well anywhere.
Joree Rose, Marriage Therapist: And we often hear people say, this is the most important person in my life.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Marriage Therapist: Then they don’t. And yet,
Joree Rose, Marriage Therapist: what are you doing to demonstrate that? So I come back to your willingness to sit through 12 hours of therapy, especially when we had previously recognized that after about 15 minutes of a hard conversation, that was your threshold of being flooded.
Joree Rose, Marriage Therapist: Or before getting,
Dr. John Schinnerer, Marriage Therapist: I would often get flooded.
Joree Rose, Marriage Therapist: Knowing that going into the first time, the two hour session was really triggering, what was different for you, and I’ll share my experience, but of heading into a 12 hour two day?
Dr. John Schinnerer, Marriage Therapist: I think a big part of it was the autonomy and control that I had in setting it up and choosing who we
Joree Rose, Marriage Therapist: went to.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Marriage Therapist: And I was referred to them by my friend, Dr. Jim Bramson. that [00:20:00] referral meant a lot to me. So I had trust in what they do and who they were immediately. And also I think my motivation to enter into therapy was much higher after our breakup because I had realized, holy shit, like this is the person I love.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Marriage Therapist: We need to work harder at making the changes that need to be made. I need to work harder at making the changes I need to make. So there was a firmer resolve.
Joree Rose, Marriage Therapist: Yeah.
Joree Rose, Marriage Therapist: For me. It was really fascinating timing because. I love leading retreats. I love being on retreat. One of the reasons I love retreat so much is the spaciousness in which we can immerse into whatever it is that we’re there to do. And I’ve been having this thought for a while that the regular therapy model of an [00:21:00] hour a week or every other week doesn’t move the needle in a way that is going to feel fulfilling or productive for what the person is really wanting to create change around.
Joree Rose, Marriage Therapist: And I had been playing with this idea of doing intensives with my clients that a four or five hour session could really give us the opportunity to dig in. Because as you mentioned a few moments ago, we get to we just get to the meat of the story. Now, the time is up or go
Dr. John Schinnerer, Marriage Therapist: back into your work or your life and the chaos and the right, how many of our
Joree Rose, Marriage Therapist: clients, we just, squeeze the hour and in the middle of their day and then don’t have time to integrate.
Joree Rose, Marriage Therapist: what it was that they were feeling. And so I had been having this thought for a while and to hear that this is what Charlie and Linda were doing. Really confirmed and then we can talk in a few minutes because you mentioned the MDMA and I’d like to come back to that actually because of the science around the studies that have been coming up in which it’s [00:22:00] actually been scientifically shown to be really beneficial for symptom reduction to do intensives, even without any.
Joree Rose, Marriage Therapist: Medicine involved in the therapy. So I was like gung ho for this. I was, this to me was fun in that I wasn’t afraid of going. Yes. I truly believe that inner exploration is a fascinating journey and I was willing to let it be hard because Not only was I committed to the outcome, but self awareness and growth are just some of my highest values.
Joree Rose, Marriage Therapist: And so I was excited for what was to be revealed in the process and to both be in it as a couple, and then to have the meta awareness of observing it from a therapeutic role, and looking at Charlie and Linda, [00:23:00] both as experts and mentors while being in it and observing it. I was all in. It was in their home, which was lovely.
Joree Rose, Marriage Therapist: And six hours was hard and for maybe you have different view, but I actually thought it flew by pretty fast. And when I’ve done good, I was just going to say when I’ve done intensives with clients that are four or five hours and you and I have done a handful of four hour intensives with couples, everyone’s always amazed at how quickly it went by.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Marriage Therapist: It gives you the space. To go deeper. It gives you the space to really assimilate some of the tools that are being brought up. And I just think we don’t have the bandwidth, like even in an hour session, you barely get into any sort of depth and already you’re pulling back out and saying, Oh, it’s time to wrap up and let’s go reintroduce yourself to the crazy world of work.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Marriage Therapist: But it strikes me [00:24:00] going back to Charlie and Linda and that intensive, it strikes me how much of the time we spent in that 12 hours going back to our pasts. Not our past as a couple, our past prior to ever having met and the shit that was arising from childhood, whatever you want to call it.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Marriage Therapist: Difficulties, challenges, trauma
Joree Rose, Marriage Therapist: I seem to recall it
Dr. John Schinnerer, Marriage Therapist: with in past relationships, past marriage.
Joree Rose, Marriage Therapist: Yeah. And I think there was a disproportionate, I’m not saying this out of judgment. It just, there was a lot for it to unpack there. I even think we could have done a third day to be honest, because I felt there was a disproportionate amount on my past.
Joree Rose, Marriage Therapist: And that was fine. It’s what needed to be attended to. And clearly a sign of where I hadn’t done my work in the way that I thought I had.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Marriage Therapist: I think that was true of both of us.
Joree Rose, Marriage Therapist: Yeah.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Marriage Therapist: And I think we have done the work. It’s just, there was things that [00:25:00] there were leftovers or holdovers from me.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Marriage Therapist: I’ll speak for me that were really entrenched that I’m not sure I believed I could change because I’d tried most of my adult life to change them and hadn’t had success. and they were those unconscious, defensives, unconscious defenses that are habitual, automatic, and rapid.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Marriage Therapist: .
Dr. John Schinnerer, Marriage Therapist: And reactive, they were deep.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Marriage Therapist: They were, some of that stuff had been around since I was four.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Marriage Therapist: Without even really having a conscious awareness of it. I think we have done the work and I think we continue to do the work and I don’t know that this work ever ends.
Joree Rose, Marriage Therapist: As you said that the thought and came to my mind that I think you and I absolutely both did the work and perhaps we did the work to get to the point of what did we need to do to survive.
Joree Rose, Marriage Therapist: And I think what we were faced with this in this relationship was [00:26:00] truly, I want to grow and I need something to be different, right? Because there’s, I think we had done the inner work for ourselves in our own way of moving through our world. But what we’ve learned, especially in our relationship is the depth that we seek is also going to trigger some of our deepest stuff.
Joree Rose, Marriage Therapist: And luckily we are in a place where we can view those triggers as opportunities for growth points or awarenesses of look where we’re still stuck. Look what’s still sensitive for me.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Marriage Therapist: When, and just to circle back, when I was talking about my issues that I thought were intractable and that I couldn’t possibly change the one I’m most, that’s at the forefront of my mind is that.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Marriage Therapist: Emotional flooding in these difficult, uncomfortable conversations, [00:27:00] disagreements, and the defensiveness that would arise, the shutdown that would ensue and the shame that came up of, I’m just not good in relationship. She’d be better off without me.
Joree Rose, Marriage Therapist: And for you guys listening, if you want to hear more of that story, we did an episode a couple of weeks ago on the anxious avoidant track, where we go into more depth of what that dynamic looks like and how it.
Joree Rose, Marriage Therapist: Really manifested in some unhealthy patterns that were really hard for us to get out of. And I am so grateful that you made those changes because your ability to not get flooded and not get defensive and not shut down when I share something that might’ve hurt my feelings or feedback on something, your ability to receive it with care and grace.
Joree Rose, Marriage Therapist: Even if it’s hard and I think we’ve both done a great job and being able to name like this is hard for me right now [00:28:00] and I can still get through this, right? It’s not a complete shutdown
Dr. John Schinnerer, Marriage Therapist: when one of the things I think we’ve realized is that we both and I don’t think I can overstate this. We both hate to disappoint or hurt the other.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Marriage Therapist: And then it’s easy from there to go to, I’m not worthy or yeah, I’m all bad, at least that’s where I would go.
Joree Rose, Marriage Therapist: I wonder to the extent to which couples share that sentiment or that fear of truly not wanting to disappoint their partners.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Marriage Therapist: I don’t think most of us are aware.
Joree Rose, Marriage Therapist: Yeah. I was just going to say, I wonder how much awareness is even around what’s underneath.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Marriage Therapist: Because that was something I had to discover in our relationship.
Joree Rose, Marriage Therapist: And
Dr. John Schinnerer, Marriage Therapist: I was like, holy shit. I fucking hate. to disappoint or hurt Jory. And yet it’s inevitable, right? It’s [00:29:00] going to happen. And so I think that also goes back to this idea of, intention and really going back to looking at what was my partner’s intention in these words or these actions or the lack of action.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Marriage Therapist: And did they really intend to hurt my feelings? Because I really think it’s, most of us, it’s 99 to a hundred percent of the time we’re trying purposefully. To do right by our partner.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Marriage Therapist: And so it’s looking at the effort or the intention over the outcome.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Marriage Therapist: And that takes a little bit of retraining.
Joree Rose, Marriage Therapist: One of the things that when I work with clients, I’m always fascinated about is the difference between the details and the patterns and the details are just what happened this past week.
Joree Rose, Marriage Therapist: This is the fight we got in. This is the disagreement. This is what happened. This is what led to it. This is the context. And. That’s good information to have. And yet I always get really curious. What’s the underlying [00:30:00] pattern that keeps repeating regardless of the details. And that takes time to uncover.
Joree Rose, Marriage Therapist: And one of the things that you and I know we’ve talked about on previous podcast episodes, and I always ask with the couples I work with is, do you know your partner’s core wound? Because many couples don’t actually know what their partner’s core wound is. And if you don’t know your partner’s core wound, it’s really easy to be activating a very deep paper cut that likely was there before you ever even became partners.
Joree Rose, Marriage Therapist: And the reactions that their survival mechanisms to defend against the hurt from our core wounds looks like a lot of acting out behaviors. And when we can have that insight. It’s really powerful knowledge and information and may not always change how we show up, but it’s really helpful to have so we can understand there [00:31:00] likely wasn’t negative intent here.
Joree Rose, Marriage Therapist: There’s, how can we move through these life challenges without intentionally hurting our partner’s core wounds?
Dr. John Schinnerer, Marriage Therapist: Yeah. And I really think a lot of these disagreements or acting out behaviors or shit storms that we get in a relationship are a result of past trauma. Where people just are reacting from a very emotional, deep, unconscious place.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Marriage Therapist: And it’s not, I don’t think a lot of times it’s intended to hurt. It’s just a defense.
Joree Rose, Marriage Therapist: Yeah. You and I are both delving deep into the work of Lindsay Gibson. And her book, Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents, which if you haven’t I’ve heard of her. She’s phenomenal. Look her up, get as much information as you can about her.
Joree Rose, Marriage Therapist: And I’m doing a certification training on how to help clients heal from having emotionally immature parents. And [00:32:00] I love this quote that I learned in the training and one of the goals of therapy. And this speaks, I think what we’re talking about, these deep core wounds. That really are developmental, they start really young and they wire our brain in such a way that is going to protect us from wanting to get hurt again.
Joree Rose, Marriage Therapist: And the quote says that, the goal of the work is to uncover and articulate the self defeating solution towards safety. And if we can look at you shutting down, if I were to bring something up, you were seeking safety, right? Likely from an early childhood experience. And the challenge is it’s creating a lack of safety in the relationship and not even really perhaps helping you being safe in the moment.
Joree Rose, Marriage Therapist: But it was such a well established defense mechanism of not feeling safe and it’s self defeating [00:33:00] because it’s not creating the very thing you’re seeking to create. And I love that idea. And I think that is what this 12 hour intensive allowed us to do was look for these patterns and which we thought was serving some deeper inner need that was creating a bigger problem in our partnership.
Joree Rose, Marriage Therapist: And that takes time to uncover.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Marriage Therapist: And I like the internal family systems lens on that one too, right? That, there was a part of me that got hurt when I was four or five that. The best strategy I could come up with at that time was to make sure everyone was happy, to make sure no one was getting angry, like my mom, for example.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Marriage Therapist: And that part of me would then come out, it gets frozen in time, and that becomes a defense strategy. So when we would get in conflict, this part of me would come out and, it’s really like a four or five year old John is coming out and controlling the [00:34:00] show. And that’s not an effective way to live.
Joree Rose, Marriage Therapist: I remember at times even being able to ask you, what’s the part of you that’s Acting out right now, what’s the party that’s hurt and that’s, two, two therapists in relationship doing some perhaps therapy on each other in the moment of conflict. And yet it can be a really effective question.
Joree Rose, Marriage Therapist: What’s the party you that’s at that, that’s feeling sensitive right now.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Marriage Therapist: I also like that question of. Is this argument really about us, or is this about a past relationship, i. e. like a prior marriage, or is this about your childhood? Because I don’t, a lot of these arguments that we see couples get in, I would argue are more about things from the past than the present argument, the present circumstances.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Marriage Therapist: And everyone will agree with me, I’m like, like you and I got in that disconnection, that disagreement in Barcelona over me eating an hors d’oeuvre, so I started without you. And we got disconnected for a long time. [00:35:00] And, and I say, look, and I’ll use that as an example of we get in arguments about the dumbest shit, like it’s so insignificant, but there’s something underneath the details, as you say, that’s important or that was important when we were four or six or, 27.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Marriage Therapist: So do me a favor, circle back, you were going to bring up the MDMA study and the placebo or the control group, actually that control group versus the MDMA assisted therapy.
Joree Rose, Marriage Therapist: So just some history on MDMA was actually created back in the early 1900s, but actually gained quite momentum in the late 60s and 70s from a local therapist here in the Bay Area, who was giving it to couples for couples therapy.
Joree Rose, Marriage Therapist: And MDMA is a chemical compound that has some really amazing properties and it quiets down the defensive part of the brain while simultaneously [00:36:00] allowing for it to be in a heart opener and it elicits positive emotion and compassion. So imagine being able to take something that simultaneously is going to calm down your defensive reactions.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Marriage Therapist: Will calm down your fear response. Yeah.
Joree Rose, Marriage Therapist: And allow you to see through positive lens of love and compassion being at a place of being heart centered. And
Dr. John Schinnerer, Marriage Therapist: see that would be perfect for me in that first session.
Joree Rose, Marriage Therapist: So in the 70s, that was used for couples therapy. And then the war on drugs happened and the whole thing got shut down.
Joree Rose, Marriage Therapist: And for almost 40 years, a privately funded company has been doing research around MDMA and its effect on therapy. And it’s looking to be legalized in California, hopefully this year for therapeutic use, but the studies are phenomenal.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Marriage Therapist: It’s been granted breakthrough [00:37:00] status as a treatment by the FDA,
Joree Rose, Marriage Therapist: which is both MBMA and
Dr. John Schinnerer, Marriage Therapist: psilocybin, i.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Marriage Therapist: e. magic mushrooms. Which was different reasons, but
Joree Rose, Marriage Therapist: which was in addition to our couples intensive both were parts of our healing journey. The mushrooms
Dr. John Schinnerer, Marriage Therapist: inspired us so much. We sought out training in psychedelic assisted therapy,
Joree Rose, Marriage Therapist: right? And for those who aren’t certain with the psilocybin with the mushrooms at its most simplest.
Joree Rose, Marriage Therapist: description, it allows the brain to be open to new wiring. So it allows you to get out of those really fixed neural pathways in which things the way that you’ve been in a pattern or habit of seeing and allows you to be open minded and to create new neural pathways. And in which actually can stay open.
Joree Rose, Marriage Therapist: So the critical window for learning and open new experiences is huge with the psilocybin [00:38:00] and the sense of the interconnectivity that it creates and the psilocybin being used for treatment and depression and anxiety and PTSD. Again, those studies are amazing, but the specific MDMA study I was referring to actually utilized intensives.
Joree Rose, Marriage Therapist: In which they would do three, eight hour intensives for therapy. And the control group was also doing three, eight hour intensives with, I think it was 12, one hour integration sessions
Joree Rose, Marriage Therapist: With no MDMA. And with the control group, I think the statistic was about 30 percent reduction of symptoms just from having the eight hour intensive.
Joree Rose, Marriage Therapist: Which I was so thrilled with the outcome of that study because with MDMA, do you remember the exact percentage? I think it was
Dr. John Schinnerer, Marriage Therapist: more than that. I think the control group was like 60 percent reduction and the MDMA was like 80%.
Joree Rose, Marriage Therapist: Was it that high?
Dr. John Schinnerer, Marriage Therapist: I think. We have to [00:39:00] go back and look. It was pretty astounding.
Joree Rose, Marriage Therapist: It was astounding.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Marriage Therapist: But I was astounded that the control group had such a positive impact. And we think that the majority of that was due to the setup of. The container that was created with that intensive therapy approach.
Joree Rose, Marriage Therapist: I, and I think it’s brilliant. And I love that we can have that research to pull, to support the model we really want to create for intensives.
Joree Rose, Marriage Therapist: And it, to me, it’s so intuitive as to what we’re talking about. When you give yourself the time and space. To enter into curiosity and holding it in a way that’s compassionate, right? If you have a compassionate space being held by the therapist, where you can be guided in the ability to regulate your nervous system when you are getting dysregulated.
Joree Rose, Marriage Therapist: Because at the end of the day, that’s a big thing that, I use a lot with my clients and it’s most simple terms. Rather than saying, I’m being [00:40:00] defensive, reactive, I’m angry, I’m acting out on this, I’m not. And it’s most simplest terms, you’re dysregulated. The only goal is to get regulated. And that’s just a nervous system thing.
Joree Rose, Marriage Therapist: Because if I use that language, it’s not personal, it’s not why do I have an anger issue or why am I so defensive? No, your nervous system is activated, which is going to lead to a set of physiological responses, which is going to lead to thought patterns, emotions, sensations, habits. And when we regulate our nervous system, it can all calm down.
Joree Rose, Marriage Therapist: And we even got that new research from the Gottmans in their new book, Fight Right, in which they talk about when you’re in the middle of an argument, you only have one goal. It’s not to solve the argument. The only goal is to regulate so that you can come back and talk about it when you’re not activated or triggered.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Marriage Therapist: Yeah.
Joree Rose, Marriage Therapist: But the study on the MDMA, I really look forward to it being legalized [00:41:00] for therapeutic use because there are so many times in which I see clients so stuck on that fear or reactivity or defensiveness. and so stuck on an inability to see their partner through a lens of love and compassion and have their heart soften towards connection.
Joree Rose, Marriage Therapist: And to have a substance that can do both simultaneously allows to be able to deepen the conversation to get to the root. So healing can truly occur.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Marriage Therapist: Put. I’m looking at time and we have to wrap up. And I think this has been a Wonderful conversation. So thank you for joining me.
Joree Rose, Marriage Therapist: Any closing
Dr. John Schinnerer, Marriage Therapist: thoughts?
Joree Rose, Marriage Therapist: I, to me, it’s really an invitation to the listener to get curious on your own healing journey, both individually and relationally, and recognizing healing as possible. [00:42:00] And I’ve really tried to shift the language I use in talking to people about this because I think language is really powerful.
Joree Rose, Marriage Therapist: And if we say this is a lot of work or this is hard work, the word work inherently doesn’t sound very inviting. It sounds tedious and overwhelming and. This is exploration, it, yes, it can feel difficult and hard and confronting and to enter into our own healing through a mindset of what do I get to explore and how can this strengthen my connection to my partner, to my family, to my friends, and most importantly, to myself, to heal some of those wounds that.
Joree Rose, Marriage Therapist: I’ve been pervasive. It’s possible. And I think that’s what I really want to inspire anyone listening is it’s possible. It takes time. It takes courage. It takes energy. It takes attention. [00:43:00] It takes an ability to get uncomfortable. So to lean in and know that it’s worth the outcome.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Marriage Therapist: It also takes good therapists.
Joree Rose, Marriage Therapist: Yes.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Marriage Therapist: I would say. Now. And so thank you for that. My, my closing thought has to do with. this term of trauma, which I think is thrown around too much, like many of these psychological terms. I think it’s overused. And I’ve talked to a lot of men about this over the years, and every one of them says, I don’t have any trauma.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Marriage Therapist: And I, I don’t think we get to being an adult without trauma and I really Faith Harper’s definition of trauma is anything that disconnects you from a feeling of safety and security. Now on one hand, that’s a pretty low bar for quote unquote trauma. On the other hand, I really like that definition because I think it opens up [00:44:00] the doorway to go back in your life, in your childhood in particular, and think about, okay what may have disconnected me from a feeling of safety?
Dr. John Schinnerer, Marriage Therapist: And for most of us, there’s a ton.
Joree Rose, Marriage Therapist: Yeah.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Marriage Therapist: And even if you don’t want to put the phrase trauma on it, but maybe difficulty or challenge, those things all add up. Those things have an impact on how you’re functioning as an adult now. Those things have an impact on how you’re functioning in your romantic relationship right now.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Marriage Therapist: And until I look at those with curiosity, we’re still going to get stuck in these defensive, unconscious, habitual, automatic reactions.
Joree Rose, Marriage Therapist: That’s why I like the word wound.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Marriage Therapist: Yeah, that’s a good one.
Joree Rose, Marriage Therapist: I like it because it also feels compassionate. I have a wound here. There’s pain around this area, but you’re right.
Joree Rose, Marriage Therapist: I hear that all the time too. From male clients, I don’t have any trauma.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Marriage Therapist: And I think I’m sure females too, [00:45:00] because you don’t want to be weak, right? You don’t want to, we don’t like to think of ourselves like that. No one will. I shouldn’t say no one. Many of us don’t like to be viewed as a victim.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Marriage Therapist: We don’t want to view ourselves as a victim. And I don’t know that you have to. I think that just for men growing up in the man box culture alone, is going to be enough to disconnect us from a feeling of safety at times. Men think of the fights that we get in as we’re growing up. Think of the insults that we get.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Marriage Therapist: Think of the posturing that we have to do. Think of the put downs we get from friends all along. I was talking with a guy in his 50s recently and he’s Oh yeah, shit, I’m going out with my friends this week. We still do that.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Marriage Therapist: Anyways, I think your point is well taken to have the curiosity and the interest and the belief that you deserve it to look back and think what might have left a mark.
Joree Rose, Marriage Therapist: And
Dr. John Schinnerer, Marriage Therapist: how might that be impacting me now in my relationship is a good way to go.
Joree Rose, Marriage Therapist: Yeah, it’s always scary to get vulnerable [00:46:00] because if we open up to vulnerability, I could get hurt again.
Joree Rose, Marriage Therapist: And I think that’s with the good therapist can hold the container to hold the space of that sensitivity with a lot of love and care. So the couple can develop a new baseline of safety and security and trust with one another. And just to, bring it full circle. We’re here at this anniversary of our intensive in which we were at that time still getting stuck in that anxious avoidant trap and that attachment style that came with those belief systems.
Joree Rose, Marriage Therapist: And you and I’ve been talking recently of, wow, look at that. We have a really secure attachment with each other. Now there’s a lot of safety there. Yeah. And that doesn’t mean we don’t get triggered or we don’t have insecurities or we don’t have wounds resurface. It just means it doesn’t feel the same level of dysregulation because that safety and security is there.
Joree Rose, Marriage Therapist: So thank you for thank you for your curiosity and exploration with me. It’s been an [00:47:00] amazing year.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Marriage Therapist: Yeah, it has
Joree Rose, Marriage Therapist: from what we’ve
Dr. John Schinnerer, Marriage Therapist: accomplished. Thank you for sharing your insights, love. And that is it for this episode. Oh wait, one more thing. Oh yeah.
Joree Rose, Marriage Therapist: If this is interesting to you as the listener, we do have our monthly masterclass series, love isn’t enough where each month we do an hour long masterclass on different topics.
Joree Rose, Marriage Therapist: This upcoming week that when this episode is released, it’s going to be on mindfulness and how being mindless. And affects your relationship negatively. When you sign up for the whole year, you get all the previous recordings as well as the entire year for lifetime access, there’s exercises. So partners can, we look at it as have a date night, tune in and, look for opportunities for growth.
Joree Rose, Marriage Therapist: And we are also accepting work with couples who are. Eager to deepen their connection who are committed, but stuck and who hopefully feel [00:48:00] inspired by our story of hearing our own journey. So if that’s something that you and your partner would like to explore, we would definitely love to connect with you.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Marriage Therapist: And you can find out more at love. Isn’t enough. net.
Joree Rose, Marriage Therapist: Okay. Now you can wrap up.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Marriage Therapist: Okay. Thank you. Thank you for interjecting that. And that is it for this episode of the evolved caveman podcast. If you like this episode, please be sure to like rate review and share. It helps us to get the word out. It helps us to change the world one, one person, one couple at a time.
Dr. John Schinnerer, Marriage Therapist: And if you didn’t like this episode, you don’t have to do a damn thing. Thanks so much until next time.
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