The Hero’s Journey, Male Archetypes & Healing Men

THE HERO’S JOURNEY: STAR WARS. LORD OF THE RINGS. BATMAN. HOMER’S ODYSSEY. SPIDERMAN.

All classic tales of the Hero’s Journey—the epic story arc where the main guy goes through hell, faces impossible odds, levels up, and comes back transformed. Thanks to the famed mythologist, Joseph Campbell, this idea has been burned into our brains as the ultimate blueprint for success, especially for men.

But what if your life no longer feels like a hero’s journey? What if there are no dragons to slay, no galaxies to save, no slow-motion victory scenes? What if your biggest daily challenge is figuring out what the hell to eat for dinner? Does that mean you don’t matter? Does that mean your story isn’t worth telling?

This week on The Evolved Caveman Podcast, we’re tearing into the Hero’s Journey myth and asking the big questions. Is it inspiring us, or is it setting us up for disappointment? Are we too focused on being warriors, kings, and magicians while ignoring the other archetypes that shape a well-rounded man? And how has the whole “bromance” trope actually done more harm than good?

Dr. Jason Frishman joins the conversation. He’s a psychologist with over 20 years of experience helping men, families, and organizations rewrite their own stories. From therapy rooms to farmers’ markets (yes, really), Jason helps men step into their own unique path—not just the one society expects them to follow.

TOPICS COVERED

What the hell are archetypes, and why should you care?

The Hero’s Journey vs. The Anti-Hero’s Journey, which one are you living?

How the Hero’s Journey pushes men forward and how it might be screwing us up?

Beyond the warrior, king, magician, and lover, what other archetypes do men need to embrace?

How to separate your real self from the version of you that society expects?

Why the whole “bromance” thing might actually be limiting men more than helping them?

If you’ve ever wondered whether your life is meaningful without some grand, cinematic adventure, this episode is for you. Let’s rethink what it really means to be the hero of your own story.

To listen to this episode on Podomatic (where the podcast is housed), click here.

To watch the video, see below.

To read through the transcript, continue on below…

The Hero’s Journey and Archetypes w/ Dr. Jason Frishman, Mens Therapist & Dr. John Schinnerer, Men’s Counselor – Transcript

Dr. John Schinnerer: Hey everybody, this is Dr. John back with the latest episode of the Evolved Caveman Podcast. Thanks for joining us. And today it is my distinct privilege to have with me Dr. Jason Frishman, Mens Therapist and Jason is going to do his own intro today because we had a little glitch in the in the matrix over a bio.

So Jason, would you tell me a little bit about yourself? 

Dr. Jason Frishman: Yeah, sure. And I like to talk about myself as we all do, so I don’t mind that let’s see. I’ll start with what’s most important to me is I am a husband and a father of two. I have two young sons. I live in, for me, what is Shangri La.

I live in rural Vermont in a place that I envisioned back when I was a child. When I was a kid I said I wanted to live in Vermont, and I envisioned even the type of house that I live in now, and so I’m incredibly grateful and really aware of the fact that I’ve landed in a place I’ve always wanted [00:01:00] to.

But more than that, or on top of that, I’m a psychologist. I’m a narrative coach. I run a coaching program for men and fathers where I really focus on allowing and supporting men to discover who they are and how to connect more powerfully at home. With the people whom they, they love the most. And so I would say that, we were talking a little bit about some of the things I should include, I will say the, in some of the interesting things professionally is I have a master’s degree in adventure therapy, and I have a doctorate degree where I focused on something called narrative therapy.

So I’m an adventure storyteller or a storytelling adventurer. One of the two, one or the other, I love it. 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Men’s Therapist: Let’s get into the narrative and the adventure therapy because adventure therapy was something I didn’t even know there was a degree in I don’t know if there is anymore at the 

Dr. Jason Frishman, Men’s Therapist: time.

Dr. Jason Frishman, Mens Therapist: There is certainly there is a big community there’s an international adventure therapy conference [00:02:00] and so it does exist so, but in before my degree. Most people went and got some mixture of a therapy or counseling degree with an outdoor ed degree and they matched it that way. I was in a master’s program in southern United States where there was a very well known outdoor ed program and a very well known psychology program, and the school merged it, and they graduated, three or four years worth of students of course, and.

Dr. Jason Frishman, Mens Therapist: Because of, it was in the state of Georgia, because of the laws in Georgia around licensure and things like that, they felt like they needed to stop. So at the time, I was able to say I am one of nine, degreed adventure therapists in the world. Now there’s quite, I think there are more but I don’t know what other programs are out there, but it is really unique, a unique take on both therapy and growth with people.

Dr. Jason Frishman, Mens Therapist: It’s been a big, huge impact on 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Mens Therapist: who I am as a professional and as a person. Yeah. It [00:03:00] sounds like a great way to go, especially for men. So speaking of men, let’s get into the whole idea of hero’s journey, because you have a unique take on the hero’s journey, a la Joseph Campbell. And tell me about your unique take on this.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Mens Therapist: Sure. 

Dr. Jason Frishman, Mens Therapist: It starts the context. The bigger context is I love the hero’s journey. I love the narrative. I wrote my dissertation from the, with the, in the metaphor of the hero’s journey. And I would say the first 10 years of my career, I used the ideas of the hero’s journey as. primarily as the base for the therapy I did, whether it was experiential adventure or in an office, the way that I designed questions and supported people was using adventure therapy as a model or narrative.

Dr. Jason Frishman, Mens Therapist: I’m sorry the hero’s journey as a model, but one of the tenants of narrative therapy. Is to question taken for granted stories in culture. So being aware of dominant stories and the impact they [00:04:00] have on who we are as individuals and who we are as cultural members. After about 10 years of doing workshops and leading programs or classes and doing therapy.

Dr. Jason Frishman, Mens Therapist: I always ask the question, what’s your favorite adventure story, real or fictional or, I would encourage any of your listeners, like right now, take a moment. What’s your favorite adventure story? What comes to mind? 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Mens Therapist: Yeah. Can we go over just a few examples, Star Wars, Indiana Jones, Iliad, Odyssey.

Dr. Jason Frishman, Mens Therapist: Those are all the ones that come up. Harry Potter, Lord of the Rings not necessarily even in the fantasy sci fi realm, Little House on the Prairie, right? Going off and doing something in an unknown area, right? Like the hero’s journey narrative, very, in a very short way of putting it is, you have a hero.

Dr. Jason Frishman, Men’s Therapist: Who gets either called out of their home area or falls, gets kicked out, has to travel to another area, another realm, another area geographically, and is tested and tasked and has to [00:05:00] challenge themselves and with help from others and whatnot. Battles a dragon, climbs a mountain, gets the treasure.

Dr. Jason Frishman, Mens Therapist: And somehow has to find their way home where they’re either exalted or shut. And it’s the developmental path of what happens to the character in that narrative, right? Excellent. Thank you. And again, it’s a wonderful story. But after about 10 years of asking this and always getting the same answers, my narrative training kicked in.

Dr. Jason Frishman, Mens Therapist: I was like, okay, I love this story, but I guess I have to question it. And the easiest way to, to answer the, or to demonstrate the question was, all right, once the hero leaves to go off on this grand adventure, what about everyone who stays home? What about everyone who’s in the fields or keeping the hearth burning or wiping the butts or, doing dishes, aren’t their lives adventurous as well.

Dr. Jason Frishman, Mens Therapist: And isn’t there magic in their everyday life that is powerful, right? Shouldn’t there be? And so as soon as I started that question, I [00:06:00] started noticing so much of the work that I do with men, in my psychotherapy practice, in my coaching practice. in many ways has to do with this. If I’m not epic, if I’m not legendary, then what am I?

Dr. Jason Frishman, Mens Therapist: And as a result, men are angry. They’re, confused, they’re lost. They’re misdirected. There’s so many depressed, anxious, all of these things. And I’m not suggesting that all of that has to do with it, but I think there’s a really big part that our culture’s stories teach us how to be. And the way that we use language in media and perpetrate certain stories.

Dr. Jason Frishman, Mens Therapist: I would hope that any of your readers, even if they haven’t heard of the hero’s journey per se, by now we’re going Oh yeah. Okay. Every Pixar movie uses it. Every Disney movie. It makes me think 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Mens Therapist: of like men that are stay at home dads. And that really weighs on everyone that I’ve talked to, and I did that myself for a few years when I was in graduate school.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Mens Therapist: And I think that it really weighs on us in terms of our self worth, because it’s [00:07:00] not a journey and I’m not out there fighting dragons or doing something awe inspiring. It’s rather mundane. And it’s thankless. 

Dr. Jason Frishman, Mens Therapist: A hundred percent. Which, and in many ways, and this brings up even bigger issues, is that The hero’s journey is by definition, a very masculine story, even though, there’s been a lot of effort by movie makers and writers to have women be the center of these stories or whatnot, but in, in a bigger picture, the hero’s journey is a narrative that is a masculine narrative, whether or not the main characters are men or women.

Dr. Jason Frishman, Mens Therapist: And I might even argue, it’s a narrative that supports patriarchal kind of dominance based thinking. In the hero’s journey, we’re not looking at shades of gray, we’re looking at right or wrong, good and bad, and there is a proponent that or it propagated, or it, I’m getting the wrong keyword, but anyway, it promotes this thinking that we’ve got to go off and do great things and [00:08:00] conquer.

Dr. Jason Frishman, Mens Therapist: We don’t think a lot about befriending the dragon, even though that does happen in some stories. It’s usually about aiming the dragon or freeing, it’s something that involves our power. And so you’re right. Stay at home dads or dads in general, right? Like dads who are working their butt off going off to work and making a good living, but then come home and aren’t, even if they think they’re doing amazing things, if they’re not like, honored and whatever the way that we’re taught that people returning heroes are.

Dr. Jason Frishman, Mens Therapist: Then there’s like a lostness, from dads who come home and don’t know what to do in the home and aren’t connecting with their kids and aren’t connecting with their partners. And, so there is this one sidedness of the hero’s journey. When I first started playing with this, I actually, my program, which is now called Journeymen, was originally called Adventures Other Half.

Dr. Jason Frishman, Mens Therapist: And it was, I was playing with the hashtag, Joseph Campbell was wrong for a long time. Mostly to see if I could get some [00:09:00] conversation about it. And I, Joseph Campbell and his contemporaries, whatever, were, Men in a particular context who were, putting things out and, it’s wonderful.

Dr. Jason Frishman, Mens Therapist: Like I said I love the concept, but it’s not that we have to throw that story out, but it’s unbalanced. It really is. It is, it shows only, frankly, the way I say it is if like when the here in the hero’s journey stories, when the hero is, let’s say down and out and the dragon is stepping on his head.

Dr. Jason Frishman, Men’s Therapist: What happens usually there’s a flashback or he reaches into his pocket and finds a token of some talisman, and he’s reminded of what’s really important and it’s usually like someone at home or, the reason why he’s doing it. And yet. The whole story about why that’s important is maybe given three minutes of a montage, right?

Dr. Jason Frishman, Mens Therapist: So it’s like a really unbalanced story. We are told about the adventures and all these great things, but we’re not told about the 20 years of [00:10:00] closeness with a partner or practicing with a sword, or, the meaning and the values of why people do the things they do to go on quests. 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Mens Therapist: It also makes me think that the hero’s journey dovetails almost perfectly with.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Mens Therapist: the man box culture that we grow up in, right? Be dominant. Yes. Be aggressive, be self reliant. Don’t back down. And yeah, It makes me think that it’s, we’re trained by society to be soldiers at some level. It’s like society’s way to train us to be heroic, to fight for our country, to protect our resources, to protect our women.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Mens Therapist: And I think that’s a very narrow view of masculinity and men in general. You’re right. It only hits maybe half of the picture. And I think that’s one of the problems, right? As we get cut off from, I would argue, two thirds of the emotional spectrum along with other parts of ourself. And then it creates this inauthenticity, this disconnect, and [00:11:00] this misery.

Dr. Jason Frishman, Mens Therapist: Absolutely. A hundred percent. And so many men have sit in my office or have been in the groups that I run where we talk about this. And, it is. Our culture’s stories, whether it’s The Hero’s Journey or similar ones, glorify certain things and denigrate others. And it’s no surprise to people who are thinking about it that much of the things that are glorified are man box attributes, and most of the things that are denigrated are stereotypically women.

Dr. Jason Frishman, Mens Therapist: Female attributes, right? Staying home, nurturing, taking care of, feeding, all of these things. And yeah, when there’s a man who’s either doing that and not getting any sort of societal support for it, or men who don’t do it are feeling lost. We know if we’re not, if we’re living only half a life.

Dr. Jason Frishman, Mens Therapist: I think that’s where we have higher levels of suicide, substance [00:12:00] abuse, or even simpler, dissociation with phones and, 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Mens Therapist: Addictions and things like that. And I really like your phrase of befriending the dragon, because that to me brings up acceptance and commitment therapy, or this idea of turning towards those parts of ourselves, either shadow parts or, uncomfortable emotions, shame, guilt.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Mens Therapist: depression come to mind. And I think that’s a really overlooked aspect of men getting to heal themselves. Yeah, I couldn’t agree more. 

Dr. Jason Frishman, Mens Therapist: I, befriending, I narrative work uses a lot of metaphors and I’m, I’ve been a writer and I love, yeah, so metaphors. super powerful, right? And in, in the hero’s journey and in man box culture, and frankly, in Western culture, we have very limited metaphors when it comes to dealing with the stuff of life, right?

Dr. Jason Frishman, Mens Therapist: So in the therapy world, we are very I think uncomfortably [00:13:00] landed in the medical model. And the medical model has a very limited metaphor for healing. It’s we kill it, we cut it out, or we, cure it or banish it from the kingdom, right? That’s that’s what we have.

Dr. Jason Frishman, Mens Therapist: And so it’s not surprising that in our hero’s journey, we have battle or killed the dragon. And of course, people have stretched that a little bit in lots of ways, right and acceptance or and commitment therapy about befriending the dragon, but even more so in some of the work I do with men now with the journeyman work, I have them.

Dr. Jason Frishman, Mens Therapist: Create the metaphor for what they want to do with their issues, as opposed to me imposing it right and I have lists of all the, we can tame that, in, in our work because we’re not battling dragons and the journeyman work we actually are and counting imps are little imps, they’re little buggers that run around trying to like that, mess things up and But the thing is that I have been able to say over years of doing this, that if we really look at the [00:14:00] history of your relationship with this imp, and we talk to the imp, we embody it, the imp’s going to say, what are you talking about?

Dr. Jason Frishman, Mens Therapist: I’m doing this to protect you. I’m doing, I’ve actually got your best interest in mind. And most guys start off by going, Oh, no way. This guy’s an a hole, right? But once we really look at it. Then new metaphors emerge, right? We’re not just going to battle it. We’re not going to kill it.

Dr. Jason Frishman, Mens Therapist: We’re not going to banish it. Whether it’s anxiety, depression, all those things. Can we tame it? Can we train it? Can we teach it or empower it? Can we, she had a new 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Mens Therapist: role with it, like IFS systems, right? Like I love that work. 

Dr. Jason Frishman, Mens Therapist: Oh, absolutely. And it’s very similar. Yes, absolutely. And so what is, Hey, if you want, you’ve already got entrance, right?

Dr. Jason Frishman, Mens Therapist: The imps already got a key. So let’s, and it’s saying it’s got my best interest in mind. So let’s relate to it differently. Let’s see what we can we make it a minion? Can we have it sit at our table? Can we have it be on our council? Like the metaphors. Are incredibly powerful. I have guys who, were in [00:15:00] my program about two years ago and we still connect and they’re like, Oh yeah, so and so is imp showed up the other day and I had to remind it what it was doing and, it’s a really powerful way to look at.

Dr. Jason Frishman, Mens Therapist: The things for a number of reasons, but one of which I’m jumping ahead a little bit, but when we look at our stuff as an embodied him, I don’t have to identify with it as myself. I don’t have to say it’s all me. I’m screwed up. I’m this I’m that it’s have this tendency this pattern this story that gets in the way.

Dr. Jason Frishman, Mens Therapist: In a way that historically helped me, that kept me safe that even if it was never particularly functional, it kept me safe and all right, if I have that piece of me, that part of me, maybe I can work with it, but it’s not all of that 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Men’s Therapist: idea of parts or imps that, developed at a younger age, typically in some difficult situation.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Mens Therapist: And we came up with the best strategy or solution that we could at that age. And then that part comes out at different [00:16:00] times generally to protect us. Perceived threat or difficulty. And so I think to look at that as Oh, that’s the five year old me or the five year old imp me to be able to look at it with curiosity and without judgment and with some kindness.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Mens Therapist: That’s a huge step. Cause I do think that a lot of this healing work is actually inner child work at this point in my career. I, that’s where I’ve landed. 

Dr. Jason Frishman, Mens Therapist: I can see that. Yeah. 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Mens Therapist: Do feel, is really a lot of it’s coming out from early childhood. And we’re just not aware of it.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Mens Therapist: And, it’s not quite that simple, but there’s a overweighted impact by those imps. Absolutely. 

Dr. Jason Frishman, Mens Therapist: It’s we have to know our backstory. Yeah. We, we have to have an understanding of our origins and our backstory and how things came to be. Because if we’re in the moment.

Dr. Jason Frishman, Mens Therapist: We recognize things aren’t if things aren’t working well, and I’m on automatic, if I’m reacting instead of [00:17:00] responding, then the pathways that were created throughout my life, those the ones I’m going to walk on. 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Mens Therapist: So there’s a bunch of other topics I want to get to because there’s a lot of interesting stuff that you’re That you do and think about.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Mens Therapist: And one of the things that I want to cover is archetypes. And, I guess we can talk about through Campbell, I guess we could talk about through Carl Jung, the archetypes that we normally hear about, particularly in men’s work are things like the King, the magician, maybe the warrior and the lover.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Mens Therapist: Yeah, there you go. And, what are some of the other archetypes? Which may be, maybe those are the dragon, right? That we view negatively, but actually have something important to teach us. What are the lesser known? Some of the lesser known archetypes. 

Dr. Jason Frishman, Mens Therapist: It’s a great question, but before we even get into that, I just, if I can create a little context is, I think I love archetypes and I think they’re really a wonderful way of understanding the world and the stories within it.

Dr. Jason Frishman, Mens Therapist: I think they’re often. Quite misunderstood. And [00:18:00] I’m not going to pretend to be a full expert in them at all. But as soon as we name an archetype, it loses some of its power, right? Because archetypes in, in many ways are stories that, in the way that Jung talked about it in the, you know the.

Dr. Jason Frishman, Mens Therapist: Collective unconscious. There’s a bubbling eruption of lava that every once in a while something pops through and the meaning can be different. The same thing pops through one side of the world or another side of the world. They’re going to have a different name. They’re going to have a different meaning.

Dr. Jason Frishman, Mens Therapist: They’re going to, pardon me, 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Mens Therapist: Camelot. Yes. 

Dr. Jason Frishman, Mens Counselor: Yes. And, but it’s true. There are different meanings. Yeah. Different energies and patterns and stories will be given different names, meanings and value, depending on the culture and the time period and the, the gender, whoever, whomever is using it.

Dr. Jason Frishman, Mens Therapist: As soon as we name something, and we give it a meaning the king, the warrior, the magician, the lover, those are men’s, those are masculine, and there are people who really hold very tight, they’ll even say, no, it’s not men, they’re masculine, and women can have that energy too. [00:19:00] Which is true, but it is so much more fluid than that.

Dr. Jason Frishman, Mens Therapist: And I think what’s really important when we think about archetypes is that they are stories and stories can be interpreted in different ways. They can be, there’s some people who believe that archetypes are a real thing. They’re energetically living and that they do pop up.

Dr. Jason Frishman, Mens Therapist: Some people believe them to be social constructions, that are passed along through culture, it’s undeniable that in every culture, not every, many cultures over time, a tree was an important symbol, an egg was an important symbol, like these things, it’s not, it’s, there’s a truth to that, but the meaning is can be, can and should be evolving, right?

Dr. Jason Frishman, Mens Therapist: So to go to your question, right? The King warrior magician lover as art, masculine archetypes. It started in the 80s ish with or 70s and 80s with the men’s movement, the mythopoetic men’s movement around, with Robert Fly and Iron John, these kinds of, Iron John like I have that here.

Dr. Jason Frishman, Mens Therapist: And it’s [00:20:00] lovely because it does give us Model to try to do better. But I actually think the focus on King warrior magician lover in the same way that archetypes of the hero’s journey are not helpful as much as they should be today, as maybe they were back then is because they’re still promoting, some of this black and white thinking good and bad, like strong and weak, there’s a dichotomy that is being, or a dualism that is promoted Promotes patriarchal thought and dominance based thinking.

Dr. Jason Frishman, Mens Therapist: And so all of that. Even in Iron John, he starts off the book by saying, essentially, there are other archetypes for men or masculine ones, but those are soft. And even though I like soft men, they don’t have much to give to us. 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Mens Counselor: Yeah. And one of the, one of the big things there that I just need to add is I think one of the important simple distinctions.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Mens Counselor: For listeners out there is that we’re trying to move from [00:21:00] a mindset of power over to power with . And I might even say power patriarchy. It’s all about power over and I think what we’re trying to evolve to is greater cooperation, collaboration, power with other people, consent agreement, that kind of thing.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Mens Therapist: Not power over. Yes. And I think we get inculcated and brainwashed with this power over idea. Absolutely. 

Dr. Jason Frishman, Mens Therapist: And I would even say like in terms of power with I would say partnership. To me, connections and partnership are the goal. And that’s what, as maturing men and masculinity, that’s the goal is creating partnerships with the people around us and the people whom we care about and not dominance or I love power over is certainly there, but.

Dr. Jason Frishman, Mens Therapist: So to give an example of a different archetype that I use quite a bit, which because again, if we think about the hero’s journey being one of the dominant stories in our culture right now, we look at [00:22:00] everything. Through the lens, right? So we’re wearing glasses that everything we see is seen through this narrative.

Dr. Jason Frishman, Mens Therapist: So if I said, Hey, there’s this, there’s a great blockbuster movie about weeding the garden and it being your turn to clean the toilets. No one would be excited about 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Mens Therapist: it. 

Dr. Jason Frishman, Mens Therapist: Oh, 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Mens Therapist: I would definitely pay to see that. 

Dr. Jason Frishman, Mens Therapist: But I actually think you, in a different type of culture. And it’s, it is actually happening more and more if you look at certain movies, but basically stories of everyday life are becoming more in people are being more intrigued in it but just to know that when you look at the world or any sort of concept, You have to actually put energy into taking off the hero’s journey lens before you start to, evaluate.

Dr. Jason Frishman, Mens Therapist: So the archetype that I use a lot in my work is the trickster and the trickster is really one of my favorites. It always has been. But again, if we look at the trickster through the lens of the hero’s journey, at best, the trickster [00:23:00] becomes an anti hero, but it’s usually a villain. 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Mens Therapist: Yeah. 

Dr. Jason Frishman, Mens Therapist: Think 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Mens Therapist: of Loki.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Mens Therapist: And that’s in our 

Dr. Jason Frishman, Mens Therapist: culture. Yeah. Loki. Exactly. But, and I say this a lot, people laugh at me the Marvel series, Loki, the TV series, I think is one of the most important mass media sort of productions for men today because it does not follow. It’s a great show. Sure. But if we, I’m actually wanting to put out a small, like a little mini course about every episode and how it shows and betrays men in a different way.

Dr. Jason Frishman, Mens Therapist: Because in addition to being a phenomenal show, it does not follow the hero’s journey archetype. Loki is neither a hero, a villain or an anti hero. He’s just a person. Loki is, gender neutral. And sometimes he lives in the gray. Men in the men box and in traditional masculinity, typical masculinity are really encouraged to see things black and white, good and bad, all of those things.

Dr. Jason Frishman, Mens Therapist: And also not to take that much responsibility, right? Like [00:24:00] we do it if we win, we’re right. And if we lose, it was because you were wrong, and what’s interesting about trickster archetypes and Loki is a great example. Is that they recognize that life is a zero sum game. If you make a left, you can no longer make a right and you take responsibility for things.

Dr. Jason Frishman, Mens Therapist: Loki who has a grander vision of things, or I would suggest has a grander vision of time, space, and, history, one of the, not the MCU Loki, but in the Norse Loki, was, did things that got him in trouble that then later on proved to be helpful. And so to me, mature masculinity is to be able to say, look, this people, this is not going to be popular, but I think it’s important.

Dr. Jason Frishman, Mens Therapist: That’s a trickster attribute. It’s really not very much a kingly attribute or a worldly attribute. And so the idea of working with men to embrace sort of tricksterism, I joke that like bad jokes are the [00:25:00] modern remnant of the trickster, and they’re important because of that. Yeah. I think the trickster is an archetype that I particularly love and the trickster is often the storyteller.

Dr. Jason Frishman, Mens Therapist: The trickster is often the bringer of information. And also the question or the, we talk about like the jester, who is the only one that can give bad news to the king because they can do it with humor, right? And so they’re also the ones, Oh gosh, I’m going to forget the name, but the Greek God that brought fire to humans is considered a jester.

Dr. Jason Frishman, Mens Therapist: All right. A trickster. Excuse me. I forget his name. We’ll come. Someone will tell us. I’m sure. Yeah. But like these. So it’s not Prometheus. That was, yes, it was Prometheus. Yes, it was. Okay. And yes, I believe it was. And these characters, they’re storytellers, they’re information bringers.

They’re also challengers of the status quo. They will parody and make fun of the powers that be. And a lot of the argument is in our culture today, where there’s very little [00:26:00] space and time for real tricksterism, the powers that be start to buy their own crap. 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Men’s Counselor: And I like the archetype, sorry to interrupt.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Mens Therapist: I like the archetype of the gesture because the gesture can speak truth to power, as you mentioned. And I often feel like that’s what I’m doing. Challenging status quo, challenging. Man box, the patriarchy, but also challenging men of incredible wealth to look at their own bullshit. And that’s a fine line to walk a hundred percent.

Dr. Jason Frishman, Mens Therapist: And yeah, you don’t walk it right. You lose your head. Yeah, and so you’re right. And it is this, there’s also a, because of that, there’s an indomitable courage in the trickster or the jester or, those kinds of things. And but it’s a different, it’s a radically different courage than the magician, the warrior, right?

Dr. Jason Frishman, Mens Therapist: The courage of the warrior is to follow the rules and to have a code and to listen to the king and, all of that. Whereas, Sorry, I’m thinking Lancelot. [00:27:00] Oh yeah. No, they like, he broke the rules. , he did break the rules. And actually some have argued the Lancelot was more of a trickster than a word.

Dr. Jason Frishman, Mens Therapist: Oh, fascinating. Yeah, it makes sense. And yeah, there is some of that and, but the tricksters, prerogative in in, in courage and speaking to speaking truth doesn’t come from an outside source saying, you’ve gotta do this for, God in your country.

Dr. Jason Frishman, Mens Therapist: They’re doing it because of a sense of what’s right and what’s, and that’s always debatable too. And so living in the gray is one of these things where we don’t, we as a culture don’t do that so well. 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Mens Therapist: No, we don’t. We get stuck in that black and white all or nothing thinking. Exactly.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Mens Therapist: Turning pages a little bit here. I’ve also thinking that I think both of our careers we’ve made, we find it important to help others inject space between their selves or the masks that [00:28:00] they wear and culture. And I was curious how you help people to gain a little bit of air between mask and self. That’s such a well worded question.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Men’s Counselor: I’m going to have to remember that. I think I’ll give you a minute to think about it because especially for this man box phenomenon, one of the reasons I harp on it so much is. It’s the air we breathe. If we’re a goldfish, it’s the water we swim in. It’s so close to us that we don’t even realize it’s happening.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Mens Therapist: We don’t even realize that it’s infested our thinking and how it’s impacted us. And so it’s a tall order to try and get some space for most men between their socialized, how they’ve been socialized from their whole life and who they truly are. Absolutely. Absolutely. 

Dr. Jason Frishman, Mens Therapist: I’d love I, I’m having trouble giving an answer that isn’t a subtle plug.

Dr. Jason Frishman, Mens Therapist: Would that be okay? That’s fine. Okay. Just because the answer to your question [00:29:00] is so much of what’s behind the Journeyman program that I run. I have 25 years of working in a, in an office with doing psychotherapy with men. And about 10 years ago, I was just realizing like I could have these incredibly powerful sessions with men.

Dr. Jason Frishman, Mens Therapist: Who would walk out the door into a culture that like, didn’t give a shit about what we were talking about. And no matter how powerful the session was, 20, 25 percent of our gains were gone because as they walked out the door, they were hit with misogynistic advertising or expectations or, whatever it was.

Dr. Jason Frishman, Mens Therapist: And so that began the thought of I want to do something outside the realm of psychotherapy, where I can build more of a community where guys can. Define this space and create that space between culture and themselves together in, in a liminal space and a space between, and it then overcame to a place where I was sitting with a guy in a session.

Dr. Jason Frishman, Mens Therapist: And quite literally on the other side of my door in my waiting room [00:30:00] was another man that I had this thought in the middle of the session that if I could just open the door and invite them to meet one another, they would both have significant less need for the me as the therapist. But I was, but I’m literally not allowed to do that like ethically legally I cannot do that without.

Dr. Jason Frishman, Mens Therapist: Yeah. Oh, gosh. So that’s where coaching and journeyman started to evolve. And in, in real staying true to this questioning of the hero’s journey, we were talking about many men’s coaching programs use the hero’s journey as their core curriculum. And I was like, I don’t want to do that. That’s not what I, that’s clearly not where my thinking is, but I wanted a core curriculum that or core story that my journeyman curriculum would fit into and what the metaphor really came.

Dr. Jason Frishman, Mens Therapist: And this is to answer your question of creating the space, my favorite scenes and all of my favorite movies and books, even when I [00:31:00] was a kid. Were never the swashbuckling dragon battling what they were the inns and the taverns and the pubs and the cantinas. And, even as a kid, that was my favorite kind of thing.

Dr. Jason Frishman, Coach for Men: And I started thinking like why do people go to those places? They go for fun, and recreation, but they go for, they go to hear stories and tell stories and be seen. They go to nourish themselves and relax and get some food and some rest. They go to get new tools and, fix their stuff and rest their horses.

Dr. Jason Frishman, Mens Therapist: They go to get, information from the shady guy in the corner. But they, and they go to get a new quest, right? And so for me. All of what journeyman story is based around all of the work I do is based on is we create an in where guys can come in, drop their shoulders and go, let me tell you this, and so we have this space that’s outside of their own adventures, right?

Dr. Jason Frishman, Mens Therapist: As a coaching program, my program is not the adventure. Your life is the adventure. But you can [00:32:00] step out of that into the in and get nourished and get some tools and get a map and then go back out and then come back and be like, guys, I got to tell you, listen to what’s happening. And so to answer the question directly, how do we make space between the culture and our masks and things is we literally make space.

Dr. Jason Frishman, Mens Therapist: We meet up and spend time together. The work that I do is about asking. So what does this mean if or what do you think this says that you do blank or you think blank or experienced, so and so the idea that we deconstruct. And identify cultural stories, right? Oh, what you’re explaining, the kind of signs like a movie, what movie might it be?

Dr. Jason Frishman, Mens Therapist: Oh shit. Yeah. It’s a movie like, ah, I don’t want my life to be this movie, and so we look at the cultural stories and roles that are placed upon us and then question them. And that’s what makes the space is really questioning. These [00:33:00] he can for granted stories. And the first thing we have to do is see them.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Mens Therapist: Yeah. And I think self awareness is a first step for all of this. And I like your metaphor of the end, because one of the things I was thinking that we go there for is for connection. And I think men are, I can say it a couple of different ways, but really longing for connection right now. Oh, absolutely.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Mens Therapist: Other men. Absolutely. And, to your point, that’s why I started my men’s monthly dinner because I had the same awareness that you did. I’m like shit. My thought was everyone I’m talking to is struggling to find adult male friends because we lose them, they atrophy for a variety of reasons as we get older.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Mens Therapist: And so I just went to each one of them and said, Hey, I’m thinking of starting this men’s monthly dinner. We’ll meet once a month, we’ll have dinner. There’s no cost other than your own dinner. There’s no agenda other than connection. Are you in? Every one of them said, and now the list is up to 30 and, usually eight to 10 show up and we have a good time.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Mens Therapist: We laugh. We tell some [00:34:00] stories. We. Commiserate and we normalize each other’s, time on the planet, which is huge. Absolutely. 

Dr. Jason Frishman, Mens Therapist: Oh yeah. That connection is really one of the most, I love the idea of of a men’s dinner, my the company that I, that actually runs journeyman, my the parent company that I started is actually called nourished connections.

Dr. Jason Frishman, Mens Therapist: I’m a cook. That’s what I do outside of some of this work. The idea of. Literally breaking bread or gluten free bread with other people is really, you’re right. It’s at the core. Let’s sit down and eat together. Let’s, someone once said to me, if all of this work got you where you want it to be, what would you, what’s your dream?

Dr. Jason Frishman, Mens Therapist: And I was like, I want to invite all the men to dinner. 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Mens Therapist: Yeah. So I love that you’re doing that. Consideration. Yeah, there was someone else I was going to go with that. Oh, I think that’s the other reason why I enjoy talking about the man box culture and the effects it has on men, because I think one of the biggest barriers to this, to getting that space between mask and self [00:35:00] is defensiveness.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Mens Therapist: And we are socialized that our go to emotion is. Most often anger, which is going to smack of defensiveness and externalization of blame. So often when I’m talking about Manbox culture, I’ll say, look, realize this isn’t your fault. None of this is your fault. You didn’t ask to be socialized like this.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Coach for Men: It just happens. However, it is your responsibility to evolve beyond it. Absolutely. 

Dr. Jason Frishman, Mens Therapist: Yeah. And yeah, 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Mens Therapist: I think there’s truth to that. And I also think that it’s a way to get into some men’s minds where they can exhale and go, Oh shit. It’s not my fault. Oh, and they can actually consider the idea long enough to get that, breathing space.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Mens Therapist: And let’s take it even further. It’s it wasn’t your parents fault either. Yeah. They were just doing the best they could, you 

Dr. Jason Frishman, Mens Therapist: know, 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Mens Therapist: culture and context that they were living in. 

Dr. Jason Frishman, Mens Therapist: Absolutely. So as [00:36:00] I’m sure you see so many of the men that I talk to, we also talk a little bit about their relationship with their fathers or they, or whatnot.

Dr. Jason Frishman, Mens Therapist: And, I actually get chills when I think about it, but like when men start to realize, Oh, my dad was just a man too. And he was, I actually am thinking about one, one, one guy who was in one of my groups about a year ago. He came in with this goal. that he wanted to be able to create a better foundation of relationship with his son.

Dr. Jason Frishman, Mens Therapist: About a quarter way through the thing, we had a private meeting and he said, I don’t know if that’s the right goal. I actually think I have a great relationship with my son. And I was like, all right let’s explore a little bit. And what came of it was he healed a relationship with his father in a way that he never expected.

Dr. Jason Frishman, Mens Therapist: And then he never thought was going to be, even on the table. And it was surprising to him, but really powerful into the point where even to this day, grandpa is now [00:37:00] part of his grandson’s life in a way he never would 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Mens Therapist: have been. 

Dr. Jason Frishman, Mens Therapist: That’s awesome. 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Mens Therapist: And speaking of this, can I ask you, may I ask you a personal question?

Dr. John Schinnerer, Mens Therapist: Sure. Of course. What did you receive or learn from your dad that you appreciate? And what did you learn or receive from your dad that you would rather get rid of or leave behind? 

Dr. Jason Frishman, Mens Therapist: Very good question. 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Mens Therapist: You’ve got to be all on top of this. I gotta imagine you’ve thought about this at some level. 

Dr. Jason Frishman, Mens Therapist: Oh, so much.

Dr. Jason Frishman, Mens Therapist: And it’s interesting cause my dad and I have a great relationship and we have a lot of things in common. He was a social worker. So we have some interesting similarities. He was, for his time, quite liberal. Yeah. So I would say, what I got from him, and this is something that I’ve said a lot a lot of the journeyman work and concept and perspective is about, chop wood, carry water, or I add chop wood, carry water, break bread, like we do what needs to be done because that’s valuable, not just because it’s a chore.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Mens Therapist: And also, 

Dr. Jason Frishman, Mens Therapist: can I 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Coach for Men: add something to that? Cause that’s a [00:38:00] famous book title, right? From Zen. And the reason I remember reading that book when I was like 19, I was like, I don’t know what the hell this means. And later I was like, Oh, what it means is be mindful, be present in whatever it is you’re doing and lose yourself in the task.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Mens Therapist: So if you’re chopping wood, chop wood, don’t be caught in the negative past to the negative future. If you’re carrying water, carry water. If you’re being with family, be with your family. Sorry. Absolutely. 

Dr. Jason Frishman, Mens Therapist: No. And, and I think, we can go, we can have a whole hour just even about that phrase, because there’s so much more to where that can go.

Dr. Jason Frishman, Mens Therapist: But I think that’s something that I take from my dad is that, a great example. And it wasn’t even from growing up, but when my first born, when my son was born. Lots of chaos, newborn baby, we’re at home, we’re all that kind of thing. And anytime you looked, my dad was like cleaning up the dishes and doing the dishes.

Dr. Jason Frishman, Mens Therapist: And, he wasn’t like, let me do something big [00:39:00] and help you all. No, he was like, quietly let me do what needs to be done. And I always, I’ve taken that as something for me is really important is what needs to be done. Let’s do it. Let’s just, let’s make it happen. And not in a masculine fix it sort of way, but in a service an element of a servant, you’re, it’s a discipline where we do what needs to be done because there’s meaning and there’s value, right?

Dr. Jason Frishman, Mens Therapist: There’s more treasure in doing the dishes than going off and battling dragons, in my opinion. And so that’s really what I got from him. I think something, a couple of things in terms of things that I got from him that I wouldn’t, that I actively try to move away from is, I think he. Sometimes struggles with being as engaged.

Dr. Jason Frishman, Mens Therapist: So sometimes, his own sensitivities might cause him to isolate a little bit. He’s not even at for a social worker who is quite liberal, not as emotionally expressive as I think I would like to be and that I would like my sons to be, I told my I was having a conversation with my 15 year old about journeyman and the [00:40:00] work I do.

Dr. Jason Frishman, Mens Therapist: And I said, poppy, who’s my dad. I said, Poppy doesn’t say I love you to me that often. And I said, I know without a doubt because of who he is and who we are that he does. And he loves me deeply, but he doesn’t say it that often. And that’s okay. But my son says, you tell me you love me all the time.

Dr. Jason Frishman, Mens Therapist: And I said, yeah that’s. And he said, actually, he said, and Poppy says he loves me. And I said, yeah, Poppy’s done his work too, Poppy is doing his work and that’s important. But I said to him, I said, you realize that lots of men aren’t comfortable with that. That isn’t something that they, they’ll show it through doing stuff.

Dr. Jason Frishman, Mens Therapist: They’ll show it for lots of ways, but the idea of expressing and cuddling and, that element, one of my journeymen, one of the guys said, I want to do this because I want my 10 year old to be as comfortable holding my hand at 20 as he is at 10. And I want to be able to encourage that in him.

And that’s [00:41:00] very much about what I think, I, my, my father who always does what needs to be done and who is always there. I think if I called him right now, he would be here in six hours coming from New York. He would do it in a second. But in terms of emotionally just being willing to go there, right?

Dr. Jason Frishman, Mens Therapist: I think that’s something that we, this next generation of men we have to evolve towards. 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Coach for Men: Yeah. No, I agree. Thank you for sharing that. And so let’s, we only have, I don’t know, five or seven more minutes, but one of the questions I wanted to get to was the topic of bromance, because it feels like every Jason Segel movie maybe ever made but talk a little bit about the bromance and how that trope.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Mens Therapist: Has really hurt us men. 

Dr. Jason Frishman, Mens Therapist: Yeah years ago I ran a men’s group, a therapy group. And I’ll never forget, one of the guys who was a stay at home dad said, I finally saw another dad at the playground. But now I feel like I’m baiting. I have to figure [00:42:00] out how to get his digits and he was like, I don’t know what to do.

Dr. Jason Frishman, Men’s Therapist: It feels weird and awkward. And what if he doesn’t like me? And, and I was like, yeah, it was yeah, it was so poignant because he was like, I see all these women, moms, like chatting away. And so a new mom comes up and they’re like, yeah. And they envelop her. And, I certainly am oversimplifying mom dynamics.

Dr. Jason Frishman, Mens Therapist: And so I don’t want to speak to that but he was like, as the only male, I was often sitting alone or feeling do these moms think I’m just like the divorced dad who’s has visiting hours? What’s, and the idea of bromance is, was very real for him. And, Then I think about it, and it’s the fact that there is a genre of movie specifically designed to like, parody, mock, or portray men having friends, yeah, all comedy.

Dr. Jason Frishman, Mens Therapist: Is, the idea that it’s even called a bromance is so mired in sort of homophobia and patriarchal thinking that it [00:43:00] feels almost even if it’s a feel good comedy, even if it feels good that they finally became good buddies. The fact that it had to be overcome to that we’re friends we let you know all of this.

Dr. Jason Frishman, Mens Therapist: It has a real me again going back to stories impacting you know cultural stories impacting our individual. It has an impact on who we are and how we say, and, men who have deep and meaningful male friendships are rare. Like it is such a hard thing. And, I tell a story of my deepest, closest friends.

Dr. Jason Frishman, Mens Therapist: I, I’m, I’m almost 50. I’ve been friends with him since we were 12. And we’ve been really close friends, the vast majority of that time. It was in, it was until our Maybe late twenties or early thirties where we could say, I love you. And even then it was, I love you, man. I love you, man. And then it was into our thirties or forties where it turned into, I love you, brother.

Dr. Jason Frishman, Mens Therapist: I love you, brother. And it was only in our late forties after a [00:44:00] 35 year old friendship where I could really look at him and say, I so value your friendship. I love you. It took, and I’m a pretty open guy. He’s a pretty open guy. And it took that long for us to really be able to do it. There’s a problem there 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Men’s Therapist: culturally.

When, to what extent, because one of the man box tenants is don’t be homosexual. Yeah. Along with don’t be feminine. To what extent do you think that socialization process harms or impacts our ability to have other male friendships? Dramatically. 

Dr. Jason Frishman, Mens Therapist: I think by definition there is this very, it’s understandable, but weird thing that a close friendship for men is somehow equated with a romantic one, right?

Dr. Jason Frishman, Mens Therapist: I love that guy, no homo. Really? Really? And so to be emotionally expressive and receptive and connected for a [00:45:00] man must be relegated to his sexual partner. 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Mens Therapist: When I get that phrase, no homo is, that speaks volumes. I remember hearing that for years. 

Dr. Jason Frishman, Mens Therapist: It’s horrific. And it does, it speaks so much to this, to power over or dominance, who’s in control here.

Dr. Jason Frishman, Mens Therapist: And, the, there is clearly right. Being gay, being a woman is clearly in the men box scene is lesser than, and it is something that is either overt. Lots of men we know overtly buy into this. Or really subtle, I’m sure you and many of your listeners would say I know men who are pretty liberal and who are very, who would say, yeah, they’re feminists, but still have these like subtle expressions of that, that we have to do the work on.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Mens Therapist: Yeah. I have to know myself included when, and I’m thinking about what do men typically do if they’re going to hang out with a guy, a friend, a male friend. And for some reason, my mind goes [00:46:00] to like hyper masculine activities, like gun range comes to mind a little bit of an exaggeration, but let’s, but I think even on a lesser scale than that okay, let’s go to the bar, we’ll have some drinks and it requires the alcohol.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Mens Therapist: To lessen the inhibitions before we can actually get to anything meaningful if we ever get there at all. 

Dr. Jason Frishman, Mens Therapist: Yeah. I hang out with my buddies. I say, I’ve used this before recently in some talks that I’ve given, but I can’t tell you how many men have said something to the effect of if my wife left me, I’d have no one to tell, but I have buddies.

Dr. Jason Frishman, Mens Therapist: I got friends. 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Mens Therapist: But I talked to them about cars, women and beer. 

Dr. Jason Frishman, Mens Therapist: Yeah. 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Mens Therapist: Yeah. So the question I have for most men is to what extent, yeah, sports. Thank you. I forgot one of the major four. To what extent are you comfortable speaking? At anything beyond surface level, or to what extent are you comfortable speaking with your male friends about, or in ways that don’t involve things like sarcasm, put down, [00:47:00] one upmanship, and joking?

Dr. Jason Frishman, Mens Therapist: Yeah, first of all, that’s a great question because, having people become more aware and mindful of their own practices and things like that is essential. Like the awareness of it is so powerful because then you should be go, Oh, like that, that, that is the way I 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Mens Therapist: talk with almost all my 

Dr. Jason Frishman, Mens Therapist: friends 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Mens Therapist: And not that I’m opposed to humor or joking.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Mens Therapist: I’m the jester, so I love all that shit, but it’s also really important to look at is, are those the only ways I can connect with other men? 

Dr. Jason Frishman, Mens Therapist: Absolutely. And I would say also, this isn’t to demonize. Beer, cars, sports, or women, right? Those are also really fun conversations to have if they’re not the only ones.

Dr. Jason Frishman, Mens Therapist: And if they’re not in this certain thing, and, I actually had a guy in my group who’s just so we know, just so everyone knows, I do drinking beer and watching football. And I was like, yeah, there’s nothing wrong with that. Me too. 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Mens Therapist: That’s awesome. I don’t know about beer, but, maybe something else.

Dr. Jason Frishman, Mens Therapist: [00:48:00] Yeah, no, and I’m not a sports guy, but I like high school. I watch my kids sports, which I love, but anyway but yeah, it is. It is really. interminably harmful for the, in the limitations, because then you have guys who go out and do things and come home and are just as lonely as they ever were, just as isolated, just the, 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Mens Therapist: well, Jason, I got to say I’ve greatly enjoyed this conversation.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Mens Therapist: Where, so I feel like I should have a little button. I want to have a button that I can have applause. So I can say Dr. Jason Frishman, Mens Therapist, everybody, and then hit the button. Woo, but where can people get ahold of you if they would like to find out more? 

Dr. Jason Frishman, Mens Therapist: Sure. The easiest way is I have a website, the it’s called it’s www journeymenfoundation.

Dr. Jason Frishman, Mens Therapist: com. That’s the easiest. And I think, I assume you have show notes. We can have that in there. Put all that in the show notes. Yeah I’m on LinkedIn. I’m on Facebook and I’m on Instagram. Instagram is a lot of my cooking. So if you’re interested in that, put that out there. But I think, the website or just email Jason at nourished connections.

Dr. Jason Frishman, Mens Therapist: com. Those [00:49:00] are, and at this point, I’m in a place where, it’s just me. And so if you email me, you’ll get a response from me. I’d love to have a conversation and connect with anyone. 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Mens Therapist: And thanks for coming on the show. I really appreciate it. It’s been a joy. Absolutely, John. And Likewise, it’s the beginning of a friendship.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Mens Therapist: Let me put it that way. So and that is it for this episode of the evolved caveman. If you liked or loved this episode, please be sure to rate review and share. If you didn’t like it, you don’t have to do a damn thing. Thanks so much. I’ll see you next 

time.