When It’s More Than Male Irritability? Shame

Hey folks, Dr. John Schinnerer here with another juicy episode of The Evolved Caveman! Today, we geek out on emotions with the amazing Hilary Jacobs-Handel. Hilary’s got quite the resume—a master’s in social work from Fordham, psychoanalysis training, private practice in NYC, mental health consulting for TV’s Mad Men, and she’s a wizard at helping people uncover their authentic selves through the Change Triangle. This bad boy is all about reconnecting with core feelings like anger, sadness, fear, joy, and excitement—a real emotional treasure map. We start off by agreeing that men desperately need to develop emotional awareness, literacy, and communication. Men often run from emotions, seeing them as weak or confusing, but they’re crucial for connection and mental health. Hilary stresses that emotions are scientifically backed and universal, driving everything we do, and demystifying them can flip the script on the anxiety and depression epidemic. We dive deep into how our society screws up emotions for men—how we’re taught to bury them and wear a mask. Hilary talks us through the Change Triangle: starting from core emotions at the bottom (like anger, fear, sadness, joy, etc.), moving up to inhibitory emotions (shame, guilt, anxiety—those that squash core emotions), and defenses (ways to avoid feelings, like drinking or isolation). Real-life examples, like someone mishandling grief from losing their parents, show how unprocessed emotions can mess with adulthood. We had a laugh about how emotions like joy and pride are often seen as “unsafe” territory too. The discussion gets real juicy when Hilary lays out the Change Triangle visually, explaining how connecting with your feelings can lead to your most authentic self—calm, clear, and connected. Towards the end, we nerd out on practical tips for re-parenting yourself, grounding techniques, managing rage, and leaping out of your head and into your body. Hilary’s Change Triangle does more than explain why you feel like crap; it’s a tool for daily emotional workouts. So if you’re feeling like a caveman lost in the emotional modern world, hang tight, get cozy, and prepare for a mind-blowing dive into emotional intelligence. Grab Hilary’s book, ‘It’s Not Always Depression,‘ for more stories and a complete guide to wielding emotions like a boss. See you next time on The Evolved Caveman! PEACE!

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Is It More Than Irritability? The Change Triangle w/ Hilary Jacobs-Handel, Author & Dr. John Schinnerer, Counselor for Men

Introduction and Guest Bio

Dr. John Schinnerer: Hey everybody, this is Dr. John back with the latest episode of The Evolved Caveman, and today I am really, I’m excited, I’m honored this speaks to the emotion geek in me and part of the reason that I got into psychology was. And so I am thrilled to have on as my guest today, Hilary Jacobs-Handel, and let me just read the bio really quickly. Hilary has a master’s in social work from Fordham. She studied psychoanalysis for with, for four years at the Institute of Contemporary Psychotherapy, private practice in New York City.

She’s been a mental health consultant for the hit TV show Mad Men, and Hilary has a passion for helping people become their authentic selves. Being real or authentic leads to greater connection, compassion, calm, creativity, courage, and confidence. And one of her main tools, which we’re going to talk about today, is the Change Triangle.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Counselor for Men: It’s a sort of map to finding the true self. It [00:01:00] helps people become reacquainted with core feelings like anger, sadness, fear, joy, and excitement. And one of the things that I love about this is that it’s my belief that emotions drive everything. Everything we don’t do, everything we say, and don’t say.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Counselor for Men: But often we don’t have an awareness of even how our emotions are affecting us. Hilary Thanks for coming along. I really appreciate it. I’m thrilled to have you here. How you doing? 

The Importance of Emotional Awareness

Hilary Jacobs-Handel: I’m doing great, and I’m very happy to be here And I’m so glad that you asked me and I particularly love sharing this information with men and the women who love men and Want them to be well 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Counselor for Men: Yeah, and I think this is, sorry for interrupting, I think this is one of the huge areas that men need to work on developing is the emotional awareness, emotional literacy, emotional management and communication.

Hilary Jacobs-Handel: Yeah, absolutely. And I, I’m just, I’m identifying with your audience out there. That’s like emotions. Oh, [00:02:00] no, it’s like People run the other way and for good reason because we’re sold a bill of goods that our emotions are weak We are not given any tools to understand or to work with them and they’re painful and they’re mysterious.

Hilary Jacobs-Handel, Emotion Expert: And I’m hoping everybody hangs in there and listens because if you learn a few basic facts about emotions, it demystifies them. And if you we try to undo the myths about emotions because there is science. behind emotions, and everybody, men, women, and every gender in between have the exact same core emotions.

And when we deal with them, when we lean into them, which takes strength, not weakness, right? It’s much easier to avoid things to grab a drink, but when we can understand and lean into them, just all sorts of good things start to happen, and there are ways to manage them so that they don’t feel out of control.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Counselor for Men: Yeah, and I remember when I was in middle school, My, my emotions, I was humiliated as a result of an emotional experience. [00:03:00] And at that point in time, if you had given me the option, I would have ripped the emotions out of me and left them in the gutter and Mr. Spock. And I really think that’s the approach or the strategy of a lot of men.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Counselor for Men: We’re just going to bury it. We’re going to wear a mask and we’re going to pretend we don’t feel anything. And yet emotions, once you learn to manage them can be such a source of power and strength. And courage that it’s not even funny. And I think what we’re shooting for in terms of this evolved caveman is really a balance between the intellectual, the analytical.

Hilary Jacobs-Handel: I’m so glad you mentioned that, because more and more I, as I talk to people out all over the place, what when, it’s another thing people get frightened of. It’s I don’t want to wear my heart on my sleeves. I don’t want to, it’s inappropriate for me to display emotions. And exactly what you said, we’re not talking about that at all.

Hilary Jacobs-Handel: We’re talking about a balance between A thought process and an irrational and thinking things through it’s [00:04:00] critical But the missing piece And why we have an epidemic of anxiety and depression and addiction And so many other symptoms on our hand is that piece where we’re cut off from our bodies, which is where emotions live And when you can bring yourself into balance Which is in the jargon the science jargon like homeostasis.

Understanding the Change Triangle

Hilary Jacobs-Handel: Everything is balanced and our nervous system is calm then you can actually think best, you can focus best, you can connect and relate best, and it’s, it really is the missing piece in how to really thrive in life, 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Counselor for Men: I think. I’d like to say that Rene Descartes, the philosopher, really fucked us when, several hundred years ago, he said, I think, therefore, I am.

Hilary Jacobs-Handel: And 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Counselor for Men: it really made us over identify with our head and our thoughts. And it disconnected us from our body disconnected mind from body and one of the huge things With the men I work with is getting them out of their head [00:05:00] and into their body To figure out what is it? I’m feeling right here right now. 

Hilary Jacobs-Handel: Yes Exactly and how when you do that if you don’t mind me asking what’s the initial response when you ask people to slow down and notice?

Hilary Jacobs-Handel: as I do in my work as an ADP therapist, which is a trauma informed emotion therapist. Yeah. 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Counselor for Men: Yeah. I think that, I think they’re surprised. I think that once they begin to do it, they’re actually. Okay with it. It takes some practice. And it takes some repetition, and it takes some reminding but I think once you begin to tune into the body, it’s not nearly as scary as you think emotions are, because I think a lot of men are terrified of their emotions.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Counselor for Men: It’s, I like the saying that, the mind is like a terrible neighborhood that you’re afraid to go alone. 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Counselor for Men: And we think a lot of our emotions, we, I say, something like, I think I’m sad. That’s a thought. That’s not really how you’re feeling. You might be feeling sad, but where do you notice sadness in [00:06:00] your body?

Dr. John Schinnerer, Counselor for Men: What are the physiological cues that you pick up to know? At some level that you’re sad to experience sadness on a visceral level 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Counselor for Men: And I think that the men that I work with are quite open to it. Actually, I think they’ve been, I don’t know, hungering for this, knowing where to go. 

Hilary Jacobs-Handel, Emotion Expert: Yes. And it’s quite a relief when you make contact with these deeper areas of the brain and the body and the visceral sense of self, even though it may not be joyful, right?

Hilary Jacobs-Handel: Where this is not like a positive psychology. It’s about. It’s about a deep connection with this is me. 

Core Emotions and Their Impact

Hilary Jacobs-Handel: I recognize this as true for me. And there’s this click that happens. And even though something may be painful, may be sad, or it may bring up fear, if it’s done in a way where there’s a safety established, and that’s, [00:07:00] We could talk about how you do that that it feels good, even though it may be hard.

Hilary Jacobs-Handel: And I do want to just take dovetail on something you said about taking it. As a practice, I think it’s a lifelong practice that the change triangle, which is just for people to make it clear is something that I didn’t invent. I adapted it from the academic literature because I came across this triangle that explained emotions in my training and the moment I saw it I understood my anxiety.

Hilary Jacobs-Handel: I understood the two depressions that I went through. I understood my defenses and why I avoided my feelings. Transcribed And I felt organized and I really thought why should this be separate from the public? This should be basic information that I hope people will learn starting in ninth grade pretty much.

Hilary Jacobs-Handel: I think that teens and young adults really I know they benefit from understanding it because then you don’t feel ashamed of your emotions or ashamed of and scared by what’s happening inside With these [00:08:00] strange kind of physiological experience that i’m that emotions to people who are meant to cause because they have a purpose, which is to help you survive.

Hilary Jacobs-Handel: So 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Counselor for Men: Let’s go in. I, my mind explodes when I’m talking to you, like I could go a hundred different directions at once instantaneously. So let’s stay on topic and let’s go. Would you explain the Change Triangle to us? 

Hilary Jacobs-Handel: Yes, it’s basically a simple a simple diagram. I guess I’ll hold it up. Can you see that?

Dr. John Schinnerer, Counselor for Men: Yeah, just hold it still for a minute, would you? Yeah. Yeah, there we go. Thank you. 

Hilary Jacobs-Handel, Emotion Expert: And this is if anyone wants to go to my website, HillaryJacobsHendel.com, you can get, you can see it there. A tab that says, what is the change triangle, but the idea, and you can read this kind of short version, but the idea is that we have these, if you imagine this triangle being superimposed on my body, like here, because, and with these core emotions, which are what Darwin described at the turn of the century [00:09:00] that we all have these inborn pre wired from the moment we’re born they are ready to go and they help us survive so for example you know back in the olden days right if if you were hunting and gathering and a tiger you know was coming into your peripheral vision before you’re even cognitively Aware that there’s something dangerous your ears your eyes your senses, your skin might start to crawl You’ll get a sense that a tiger is coming It’s gonna trigger fear and fear is gonna trigger the body and you’re gonna start running for safety and this happens so quickly much more quickly than the cerebral cortex, which is the sort of the thinking brain, can work.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Counselor for Men: And so The emotional brain is just faster It’s 

Hilary Jacobs-Handel: faster. 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Counselor for Men: It’s more refined. It’s gone through thousands of revisions. 

Managing Emotions and Anxiety

Hilary Jacobs-Handel, Emotion Expert: Yes. And it’s very black and white. It’s fear. It’s Safety. So you see a tiger, you start running, and if you had [00:10:00] to see it and evaluate it, you’d be eaten already by the tiger. And the all of the emotions, the core emotions, which are at the bottom of the triangle, which we can feel physically, are anger, fear, sadness, disgust, joy, excitement, and sexual excitement.

Hilary Jacobs-Handel: And these are there in every person, whether you perceive them or not. It’s just, and if for the people listening, if you take one thing from this conversation, it’s just know that your emotions just are, they’re not good. They’re not bad. They don’t say anything about you. They just are and different people feel them differently on a spectrum.

Hilary Jacobs-Handel, Emotion Expert: So some people are very emotional men and women, and some people are more flatlined just from their genetic makeup and their disposition. But we all have those emotions because we all need them. for surviving. Each one of the seven core emotions has its own program that tells the body what to do [00:11:00] to aid in survival.

Hilary Jacobs-Handel: And so that’s just a good thing. And when we, let’s say in a theoretical utopian world, Everybody understood that these that emotions have to be tended to and cared for your initially your parents and then your peers everybody would Receive your emotions Help you calm them when you’re young and then teach you skills to calm your own And you can 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Counselor for Men: I jump in there because I think the other piece of that is non judgment I mean you mentioned that they’re not good or bad, but we have so many judgments about our emotions 

Hilary Jacobs-Handel: Yes.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Counselor for Men: Layer other emotions on top of that core emotion and it creates problems. 

Hilary Jacobs-Handel: Yes. Exactly. To the 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Counselor for Men: extent you can look at your own emotions without judgment or look at your partner’s emotions without judgment. That helps tremendously. 

Hilary Jacobs-Handel: It’s key. It’s absolutely key. And we’re also mean to ourselves, and then we’re mean to others.

Hilary Jacobs-Handel: So it’s totally related how you relate to your own emotions and how you relate to the emotions of the people around you. So the thing to know about, like, when you have a core emotion [00:12:00] triggered, and it’s triggered by the environment. You can’t control it. Something happens. Somebody bumps into you.

Hilary Jacobs-Handel: Someone cuts you off in traffic. Your wife, tells you that you’re not good enough. It’s gonna trigger an emotion. And there’s a choice point here where you can either have skills and work with the emotion and work it through and feel the feeling and experience it, which I can define what that means to actually experience an emotion.

Hilary Jacobs-Handel: And then you drop down, your nervous system calms down and you feel again in your most authentic. Self, which you recognize by these C words when we are in our homeostatic regulated balanced nervous system, we feel calm, we feel curious in others in the world, we feel connected to ourself and others, we feel confident that we can handle life and whatever comes and problem solve, we feel clear in thoughts, we’re not ruminating and obsessing up there, and Good things happen, but what most of us do is an emotion gets triggered.

Hilary Jacobs-Handel: And [00:13:00] we, it gets cut off from experiencing it. And then we move up the triangle where most of us live in these kind of anxious, if you imagine the top of the triangle over and above your shoulders and in your head, these kind of anxious defensive states. And because we’re blocking, we don’t like what we’re feeling.

Hilary Jacobs-Handel: We move out of our body and into our head, and then the mind tries to figure out how to, the mind and body, how to squash these things down that we are frightened of. And so anxiety is really a signal, and we can all use it and recognize it, that when we’re anxious, it’s really a signal that there’s underlying core emotions that need validating and tending to.

Hilary Jacobs-Handel: Now, when You have a lot of feelings coming up, these core emotions, and you have a lot of anxiety pushing it down, which is in these inhibitory emotions on the top right [00:14:00] corner. And the inhibitory emotions are shame and guilt and anxiety. These are emotions that have the ability to squash core emotions.

Hilary Jacobs-Handel: in service of really getting along. Again, they’re evolutionarily evolved that sort of, that doesn’t make sense. They are evolved to to keep us in the good graces of our tribes, of humanity. So that, if we are told for example, if you, an example of, let’s say, healthy shame is we learn, If we pee in public, our parents say, we don’t do that.

Hilary Jacobs-Handel: That’s not what we do in society. We pee in the toilet and you might feel a little shame. And so next time you have to pee, you’re going to remember that. And you’re going to say, go to the bathroom. The sad part is this happens with emotions. So that young boys, right? Initially, they’re programmed to feel sad when they’re upset.

Hilary Jacobs-Handel: Let’s say a toy is taken away and a little boy cries, and [00:15:00] a father, who doesn’t have any emotion education, who thinks he’s doing the right thing, perhaps, by socializing his child, says, oh, we don’t cry, boys don’t cry. Or worse, you’re a pussy, or get over yourself, or who do you think you are, or suck it up.

Trauma and Emotional Healing

Hilary Jacobs-Handel: And we use muscular constriction to hold down the actual physiological energy that each emotion has. And then we become anxious instead of having that feeling. And the combination of anxiety and guilt and shame, depending on how much adversity we suffered, inside our bodies, mixed with these upcoming emotions, core emotions that want to be, come up and out and be expressed, and this.

Hilary Jacobs-Handel, Emotion Expert: Downward, like a pressure cooker, then we develop defenses, so we get cut off, and we don’t feel anything, or as soon as we start to feel something, we move into our we all have our defenses that we do, whether you play video games all the time, or whether you reach for a [00:16:00] drink, or you reach for a drug, or you’re just angry, like a defensive anger all the time, or you hate people, or you, Isolate yourself.

Hilary Jacobs-Handel: So there’s a myriad of defenses, a lot of which I list in the book and on my website because they’re interesting and the very defenses that people have are the symptoms that often they come into my office with for help with I, Where does 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Counselor for Men: depression fit in on that triangle? 

Hilary Jacobs-Handel, Emotion Expert: Yeah, so I have labeled depression a defense because what it does is depression happens when we have too many emotions and or trauma, trauma, why trauma is because an event brings up emotions and there’s no one there to help us with them.

Hilary Jacobs-Handel: And so we have to bury them. Over time if you keep doing that to contain the massive amount of energy and emotions that wants to come up We just have a massive shutdown and that’s what we feel is depression [00:17:00] where you go numb you’re devoid of vitality of energy you can’t enjoy anything and I’ve helped many people that have just tried medication and it didn’t work and tried all sorts of different types of therapy And then when you help them get in touch with their emotions They come alive and the depression goes away.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Counselor for Men: Yeah, and let’s talk about trauma for a minute because, I like that definition from Dr. Faith Harper of trauma, that trauma is anything that disconnects you from a feeling of safety. Now that’s a really low bar for a definition of trauma and it’s, so it’s interesting to me. I kind of love and hate it at the same time.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Counselor for Men: I love it because I think it encourages people to go back in their past and think. Okay, with that definition, what might have been traumatic for me? Now, we also respond differently to trauma. So some people can spend six to eight years as a prisoner of war in a POW camp and come out psychologically healthy.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Counselor for Men: Others, maybe they, got yelled at by their mom at a young age and found that [00:18:00] traumatic. There’s no judgment there on what, what we consider traumatic. The part I don’t like about that definition of trauma is I think it increases The number of people that consider themselves victims. And that might be a defense as well.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Counselor for Men: But where does trauma fit into the change triangle? 

Hilary Jacobs-Handel: It’s really the change triangle is there to prevent and ease and heal the symptoms of trauma of which chronic anxiety, social anxiety, depression, alcoholism, again, the, all of these, like why does some person become an alcoholic and another person develops OCD has.

Hilary Jacobs-Handel: To do with the genetics, right? So everything is a combination, but any of these symptoms, I now just think of everyone as having suffered. The symptoms are from trauma, meaning just surviving childhood and then depending on how many adverse events. And these are largely not talked about in our culture.

Hilary Jacobs-Handel: These are invisible things. So many people come into me feeling depressed and [00:19:00] we talk about their childhood, for example, and they had to change schools when they were in second grade, right? That is a trauma if It was very hard and it evoked a lot of fear and a lot of anger. Why did I have to leave my friends and a lot of sadness because the loss of my friends and the parents really in the teachers at school, nobody really noticed and did anything.

Hilary Jacobs-Handel: And again, so that gets squashed down because there’s no safety for the emotion, right? That’s how I would there’s no safety for the emotion, too much aloneness. We are in the face of overwhelming feelings. And then boom, we moved to the left of the triangle and we’re in defensive states. And they just get hardened, this kind of defensive way of living, just over time, a negative feedback loop.

Hilary Jacobs-Handel: But it’s, yeah, 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Counselor for Men: sorry for interrupting. I’ve often thought of just growing up male as inherently traumatic. There’s a lot of violence, a lot of bullying, a lot of name calling. You [00:20:00] do what you have to survive, and that’s it. If you look back at that with honesty and non judgment, it’s wow, yeah, there was a lot of trauma there.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Counselor for Men: There was a lot of little trauma. There was a lot of micro trauma. And we just, as men learned to bury it, 

Hilary Jacobs-Handel: because we were 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Counselor for Men: socialized as don’t feel, be invulnerable, be self reliant, which means don’t ask for help. 

Hilary Jacobs-Handel: Don’t 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Counselor for Men: tell anyone how you’re feeling when you can’t handle it. Just handle it on your own.

Hilary Jacobs-Handel: Exactly. 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Counselor for Men: And that fundamentally leads to disconnection and loneliness and anxiety and depression and drug and alcohol addiction. 

Hilary Jacobs-Handel: Exactly. Exactly. And it’s totally preventable and totally reversible. And it involves, that’s why I just fell in love with the concept of the change triangle because it was the most practical tool that I saw to give a quick education about emotions that just.

Hilary Jacobs-Handel: Blows people away. It’s oh my, and I, even though I’m a woman, I was raised in a [00:21:00] very Thinky household. My dad was a psychiatrist and you were supposed to understand But there was, if you start to talk touchy feely stuff about emotions in the body back in the 70s my dad would say that was California New Age bullshit.

Hilary Jacobs-Handel: And so 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Counselor for Men: Because I was raised to be an intellectual. It was all about grades. It was all about, yeah, it was all about book smarts. And I could do that. But I realized early on, like there’s a huge void, like something is missing. And then I would have these emotions come up and I’m like, I couldn’t manage them that well.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Counselor for Men: I couldn’t understand them that well. And I started digging into them. And so I’ve spent 25, 30 years looking into emotion. And by the way, let me just put a plug in for the book. The book is It’s Not Always Depression. I’ve read about a third of it. It’s fantastic. And I highly recommend it. It’s readable by anyone.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Top Counselor for Men: So check it out. It’s a really good book. There’s an audio book. You can order it on Amazon, but It’s Not Always Depression. Very worthwhile [00:22:00] book. And I don’t say that about many books. 

Hilary Jacobs-Handel: Thank you. My goal was really to make it an e like, almost a beach read. Just something you could go right through.

Hilary Jacobs-Handel: There’s no jargon. I tried to avoid any, again, psychobabble. And it’s mostly stories. Yeah, 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Counselor for Men: that’s why I like it. I think that, you give an explanation of the change triangle, and then you go into case examples. Yeah, 

Hilary Jacobs-Handel: of how you move from disconnected states. through anxiety and lowering that into emotions, what it actually looks like.

Hilary Jacobs-Handel: Cause the tricky thing about emotions is you can’t think your way through an emotion. You have to experience it, right? And that’s the moment of. But that’s the moment. It’s like jumping off a high dive and holding your nose, into the water that moment when you come out of your head because there’s safety in our head for whatever reason.

Hilary Jacobs-Handel: When you drop down into your body. And so I wanted to show it through my sessions. So to give somebody an experience so people could vicariously see what it looks like to [00:23:00] process a feeling where it feels better at the end. And somebody’s life has changed where they had social anxiety and now they don’t, where they were full of contempt and rage.

Hilary Jacobs-Handel: And now they don’t where they couldn’t connect to people and now they can. And so that was the, and then I have little gentle exercises. To give the reader just a taste if they want to but just the emotion education in and of itself I think gives you a great advantage and as a parent, it’s crucial. 

Practical Applications and Real-Life Examples

Dr. John Schinnerer, Counselor for Men: So Hillary, this is all very abstract pie in the sky 30, 000 foot view your dad would say this is new age bullshit give us a real life example, if you would to help us bring it down to a concrete level.

Hilary Jacobs-Handel: Yeah I guess I could talk about one of the stories in the book is Yeah, absolutely. Someone who lost their parents. I think you read the story as one of the first when they were very young. And again, see, I’m not into [00:24:00] blaming parents because they don’t have any of this information and people don’t know how to cope with emotions.

Hilary Jacobs-Handel: In fact, I w I write, and I wrote the book that I wish I had read when I was in my twenties, because I think that I While all children get screwed up, I think I could have done a better job if I had understood specifically about shame. That’s something that nobody talks about and it’s it’s a potent transformer for the worst.

Hilary Jacobs-Handel: And we really want to avoid creating shame more than needs to be just to make sure a kid doesn’t. Be, doesn’t get humiliated again walking naked or masturbating in front of other people. 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Top Counselor for Men: Yeah. It’s one of most powerful and prevalent emotions. And also one of the most dangerous 

Hilary Jacobs-Handel: Yes.

Hilary Jacobs-Handel: And leads to all sorts of aggressive symptoms. Bullying and and addictions and whatnot. This woman who I called Fran in the book, lost her parents and went to live with, her aunt and uncle and nobody really leaned into her emotional world. Everybody okay, you’re going to be okay.

Hilary Jacobs-Handel: And that’s wonderful, [00:25:00] right? The intent is good. But what happened is, because there’s such a well of grief when you lose your parents, or you lose someone you love when you’re young, You stay away from that. And again, like the change triangle, which is universal for all humans, you begin to pull away from anything that will bring up sadness.

Hilary Jacobs-Handel: Or the feeling of loss. So when you’re an adult now, and you want relationships when you dare to love again, because we’re, because we wire in our experience, this formative experience, of losing your parents is going to be triggered when when you want to love again. And so anytime that Fran would You know, think about being in a relationship.

Hilary Jacobs-Handel: It would be an intellectual thing. No, I’m not really into that. I’m fine on my own. And then when I saw her, she started to feel lonely and she [00:26:00] was weirded out by that because it was a new experience and she came to me and we really had to, I had to help her get in touch so that she could grieve the loss of her parents.

Hilary Jacobs-Handel: And in that process, it took a while because anytime anything touched sadness, it would throw her into a a state of high anxiety and panic and the way you rewire the brain that way is to, as soon as you feel anxious, you switch gears into calming anxiety. And I teach people to do that on their own through learning how to do this thing called deep belly breathing, which is diaphragmatic breathing, where you learn to ground.

Hilary Jacobs-Handel: And it’s funny, all these things, like when someone, years ago would tell me to breathe, I would find it very annoying. And I was like, what’s that? Or grounding. I’ll feel my feet on the floor. What’s that gonna do? That’s like ridiculous, but then after doing this for over a decade Breathing and grounding are the two Most important [00:27:00] things you can learn and when you learn the science for me, I have to understand why I’m doing something Just like I used to be a dentist I don’t know if you knew this but I never flossed my teeth until I went to dental school because someone explained Why it makes sense, so I’m a big believer in explaining things So 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Counselor for Men: can I jump in there real quick?

Dr. John Schinnerer, Counselor for Men: Yeah, 

Hilary Jacobs-Handel: absolutely. 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Counselor for Men: One of the things I explained to clients is that autonomic nervous system, the bundle of nerves running down the spine and how it splits into the sympathetic nervous system and the parasympathetic sympathetic is responsible for the stress response, fight, flight, freeze, Oh, there we go.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Counselor for Men: And the 

Hilary Jacobs-Handel: three branches of the vagus 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Counselor for Men: nerve sympathetic is responsible for rest, relaxation, response, rest, and digest. And so often when you get to that anxious state, physiologically, it’s just automatically activating that sympathetic nervous system, which is like the gas. If we’re the car for a car, that’s the accelerator, the gas pedal.

Hilary Jacobs-Handel: Exactly. 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Counselor for Men: That is the break. But we need practice hitting the [00:28:00] brakes and calming down. So what we’re talking about here is to helping people when they’re hitting the gas unknowingly. Okay, let’s shift to the brakes right now. Calm down with breathing and grounding. 

Hilary Jacobs-Handel: And 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Counselor for Men: you take away that automatic reaction that you’ve been locked into for years.

Hilary Jacobs-Handel: You reprogram it. So you create, yeah. So by creating, so right. So if this is the vagus nerve, which runs all the way. from the base brain, because it’s so much easier to understand a picture’s worth a thousand words. I have my brain and my authentic self here, which if we talk about, I’ll explain that.

Hilary Jacobs-Handel: But thank you. It’s, these concepts are. are hard, so the visuals help. But yes, so when, exactly, so when somebody goes into anxious states, then you switch into creating safety, because in anxiety something is unsafe, usually the emotions that they’re feeling, or they’re into the future, future tripping themselves, or they’re in the past re traumatizing [00:29:00] themselves, coming to the present moment.

Hilary Jacobs-Handel: And focus on grounding and breathing to calm the body. And that’s what I did with this woman Fran in the book. And then 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Counselor for Men: over and over, over time. 

Hilary Jacobs-Handel: Yes. It’s called pendulating in the trauma and in the field of of trauma, psychotherapy, which you may know. So you go back and forth. When someone gets anxious, then you stop the work you’re doing and you make them feel comfortable again.

Hilary Jacobs-Handel: And that’s why the collaboration is so important, but we can do these things on our own. You can work the change triangle on your own until you get stuck if you do. And then if you get stuck, you need, you probably need that other person there to create safety so that you can be courageous because two is always better than one.

Hilary Jacobs-Handel: Not always, but most of the time to go to unchartered territory and all of this emotion work has to be done in a milieu of safety and that’s why judgment is so problematic because, just for those [00:30:00] people listening, think how you feel when someone judges you. Do you feel safe? Or do you feel threatened?

Hilary Jacobs-Handel: And so when we judge ourselves We are actually creating anxiety and activating that gas to move us into the top of the triangle. So we have to be very kind and loving to ourself, almost like if we didn’t have good parents, we have to become the good parent that we always needed. And that can be challenging to 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Counselor for Men: if I can jump in there, that’s one of the reasons I like that loving kindness meditation, because you get those the mantras of may I be happy, may I be healthy, may I live life with ease and well being.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Counselor for Men: And you can add in things like may I feel worthy, or may I be calm, whatever it is you need. I love the repetition of those mantras. 

Hilary Jacobs-Handel: Yes, I totally agree. And with that said, a lot of people do get stuck because there are parts when you were not treated well as a child when we have abuse which [00:31:00] could be verbal abuse, being yelled at, or name called all of that is not okay.

Hilary Jacobs-Handel: Or being ignored. Being ignored, abuse and neglect then when you’re treated unkindly, it’s jarring to treat yourself kindly, and sometimes you have to work with that childhood. Part because we all have parts aspects of ourself and you have to again help that part Adapt to being treated kindly because people don’t recognize themselves in some way It’s an identity crisis if all of a sudden you start to be nice to yourself.

Hilary Jacobs-Handel: It’s Who am I? And that’s challenging. Yes. But again, everything, if you practice and you do it in little bits so that it’s manageable and so that you will do it because it’s not overwhelming you, then like everything, like going to the gym and building muscles. You don’t all of a sudden lift 200 pounds, you work up to it.

Hilary Jacobs-Handel: And that’s exactly when we build emotional strength, which is how I see this. We’re really building [00:32:00] emotional strength and an emotional resilience and the change triangles, my go to tool. 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Counselor for Men: And I think one of the huge goals for this lifetime is emotional resiliency. How quickly can you bounce back from adversity challenge difficulty?

Dr. John Schinnerer, Counselor for Men: Because one of the guarantees in this life is. It’s going to be painful. And the faster you can bounce back from that pain difficulty. The better off you are, 

Hilary Jacobs-Handel: right. And the better off your relationships are because when we are triggered right into that into the, so if we, if we call this red one, the fight or flight, we behave badly.

Hilary Jacobs-Handel: It pulls us to be defensive. 

Understanding Emotional Triggers

Hilary Jacobs-Handel: It pulls us to Yeah, yes, exactly. We just don’t think correctly and all, again, the past starts coming up, and we start to project onto other people how we felt with our parents, and you really want to take that time to calm down, sleep, that’s why the the proverbial [00:33:00] sleeping on something before you act is so crucial because we want to wait for that shift back into a calmer state so we can think clearly.

Personal Experiences with Emotional Awareness

Dr. John Schinnerer, Counselor for Men: It’s interesting, I’m, so I just got engaged recently and 

Hilary Jacobs-Handel: congratulations. Thank you. 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Counselor for Men: So I was divorced, so I had a prior marriage and, yeah, there, there, but there are occasions when my fiance and I will get into a disagreement. And one of us will generally have the awareness to say something like, is this about me or is this about another, a prior relationship?

Dr. John Schinnerer, Counselor for Men: And sometimes it is about the other person, but a lot of times it’s not it’s bringing up something from the past and it’s coming into the present. And so to have the awareness in the moment to go, Oh shit, yeah, you’re right this isn’t really about you. 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Counselor for Men: It’s 

Hilary Jacobs-Handel: huge So wonderful, right?

Managing Anger in Relationships

Hilary Jacobs-Handel: That’s we all need to learn to do that and not only that any even if it is in the current and we get [00:34:00] triggered to anger so crucial To know, this idea of experiencing, when I talk about experiencing your core feelings, what that really means is, first, what it doesn’t mean is you haven’t done anything.

Hilary Jacobs-Handel: There’s no action. There’s no acting out, no acting in. You just know, okay, something just happened. My, my fiance said this thing to me. It pissed me off. I know I’m angry. How do I know I’m angry? Because I feel this energy coming up, and I feel the impulse of the core emotion, because all core emotions have impulses, and this impulse makes me want to say, shut up or such bitch or whatever.

Hilary Jacobs-Handel: But, so I can notice my impulse, validate my impulse, so important, right? I’m pissed, that’s okay, that’s not a problem. But then, the last step is, let me think through, if my goal is to stay connected to this person I love, [00:35:00] what’s the best way to handle my anger? Yeah, 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Counselor for Men: I think one of the big keys there is having the awareness in the moment, I just got triggered.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Counselor for Men: I’m angry right now. What’s going on? To allow the anger to be, but not act on it. is massive. 

Hilary Jacobs-Handel: Massive. And it takes work. And it takes, it’s lifelong practice. And I’m not perfect, you’re not perfect. 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Counselor for Men: And I was just gonna say, I fail at times. Yeah. But I’ve gotten so much better over the years.

The Complexity of Anger

Dr. John Schinnerer, Counselor for Men: And, and so part of it, and I talk to people just about anger in terms of looking at it on three axes, duration, intensity, frequency, how long does it last when you get angry, how intense, which is how we normally think of anger. And then how frequently are you getting angry? Is it once a day, once a week, once a month, but improvement on any of those is still improvement.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Counselor for Men: Yes, 

Hilary Jacobs-Handel: absolutely. And yeah, anger is very tricky for men [00:36:00] and women and and every gender in between. And it’s a really good one to, to work on because. So many destructive things. Obviously it’s a destructive force. It’s meant to be a protective force, right? So evolutionarily, it’s adaptive to protect ourselves.

Hilary Jacobs-Handel: And, but if you think of anger as a catalyst for change, which I, that’s the way I like to look at it, is that something just happened and I don’t like it and something’s got to change. And and then how can you, how do you do that, right? How can we talk something through to say, yeah I don’t like that.

Hilary Jacobs-Handel: I would prefer you didn’t do that, or I prefer we do it this way. But most everything, when I work with couples, there aren’t a lot of problems that can’t be solved if two people want to solve them through compromise or taking turns or something like that. There’s a lot that can be done with anger and we don’t get any education in it.

Hilary Jacobs-Handel: And It’s a huge problem. 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Counselor for Men: Yeah. 

Emotions vs. Moods

Dr. John Schinnerer, Counselor for Men: And so let me [00:37:00] change directions a little bit, because I have a question that I’m just curious about as an emotion geek. So for me, there’s a distinction between emotions and moods. So emotions are short in duration. They generally have a cause, bear comes out of the woods, you feel fear, you run away.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Counselor for Men: Moods on the other hand are longer lasting. I think of them as emotion stretched thin over time, but moods don’t generally have a cause. They can, so if you have a death in the family, that’s going to flatline your mood. But generally, our moods just ebb and flow, and I think there’s some freedom in the thought.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Counselor for Men: Okay, I’m in a, I’m in a down mood. It’s relatively minor. There’s no cause for it. Instead of beating your head against the wall why am I feeling sad right now? Where do, what do you think about emotions versus moods? 

Hilary Jacobs-Handel: I’m with you in the way you’re thinking of it. If someone, if I know someone and they come in and they’re in a bad mood and I’ll, I’ll maybe say, did anything happen, nothing I could think of, right?

Hilary Jacobs-Handel: It could be [00:38:00] hormones, it could be sugar levels, it could be sleep. Yes. So we don’t want to pathologize. We don’t want to pathologize really anything, but in terms of sometimes I’m not going to analyze something or, We’ll figure that out together. But often, depression is a mood, low self esteem is a mood, right?

Hilary Jacobs-Handel: Or state as I might call it, yes. And then it’s probably the accumulation of a lot of stuff that has happened in the past, if it’s been around for a long time, if it’s transient, right? Let’s see how you feel tomorrow. 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Counselor for Men: And then, but I like the freedom of let’s say we’re coworkers and I come in and I’m in a grouchy mood.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Counselor for Men: And if I have the awareness, I can say, Hey, Hillary, I’m in a bad mood today. It’s got nothing to do with you. I just want you to be aware. I love that because it gives you the freedom as someone who cares about me to either, you can give me space or you can try and, help me get out of it and maybe you have success with that.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Counselor for Men: Maybe you don’t. The crux of it is the heart of it [00:39:00] is you don’t have to take it personally. And oftentimes we take other people’s emotions and moods. What did I do? What did I do? What did I do to make Hillary upset? Maybe she knows I left early yesterday. And we take it personally.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Counselor for Men: We personalize it. 

Hilary Jacobs-Handel: Absolutely.

Hilary Jacobs-Handel: that we can use words all the time. I’m like, like when kids are little, use your words. As adults, there’s so much that can be expressed. So I like how you, I totally agree. I’m going to give someone a warning. I’m in a terrible mood not to take it personally. And then I could, then the other person might even say, do you need space?

Hilary Jacobs-Handel: Or is there anything I can do? So we can even complete that circle so that you don’t have to guess, because we can’t read each other’s minds. 

Struggles with Positive Emotions

Dr. John Schinnerer, Counselor for Men: Okay, and so going back to the core emotions, what are some other uncomfortable core emotions that we might have a difficult time feeling, that we might hide from?

Hilary Jacobs-Handel: How about joy and excitement? You would not believe the [00:40:00] people that struggle, and pride in the self, which is not On the change triangle, per se, it’s underneath the core emotions in AEDP, this type of therapy that I do, this specialized type of work, we put pride and gratitude, these are healing emotions that come up after you manage your own feelings, but pride in the self and joy and excitement, particularly I was going to say particularly for men, they’re, I think excitement.

Hilary Jacobs-Handel: I’m thinking of sports games and high five and there’s 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Counselor for Men: context in which we can play it. In most contexts, we, 

Hilary Jacobs-Handel: yes, yeah. So people are struggle immensely with emotions that actually help them expand. You can almost think of emotions. As in two categories, those that make you expand and were uncomfortable with that for so many reasons.

Hilary Jacobs-Handel: And it’s a visceral expansion. You probably, people listening wouldn’t notice [00:41:00] that. But if anybody out there was in the room with me and sharing something. Let’s say your boss gave you a compliment. The first thing, and I see a smile on your face. The first thing that I’m going to do is ask, can we really slow down?

Hilary Jacobs-Handel: I see this smile on your face. What was it like when your boss gave you this compliment? What does it feel like physically? And just the other day I was with someone doing this and he said, I feel this energy coming up. I feel like lighter. I feel like I, I want to dance. And then all of a sudden predict, he’s And that, I just popped out of my head, and I’m, I guess I’m thinking, is this okay?

Hilary Jacobs-Handel: So that’s a little bit of old shame, I think, that comes up. Is it okay to be exuberant with you? Because when we’re young and we’re exuberant, so many of us hear, what are you so happy about? Or some kind of shh, because they’re being socialized, but these moments of exuberance when we’re young.

Hilary Jacobs-Handel: We learn to [00:42:00] curtail so that we don’t feel that horrible feeling of being in an expansive state when somebody Cuts you 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Counselor for Men: off from them 

Hilary Jacobs-Handel: and I 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Counselor for Men: think you know There’s other people’s jealousy can sometimes get in the way of that. I think sometimes we’re parented in such a way that We’re taught not to be arrogant quote unquote.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Counselor for Men: I hear that over and over So I think we’re afraid to be proud of our own accomplishments and pride’s a funny one because it cuts both ways It’s you know, one of the seven deadly sins, so we’re not supposed to be proud It’s also a positive emotion and I think it’s healthy to be proud of crucial who we are and what we’ve done the other description of those positive emotions that I love is expansiveness in the chest 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Counselor for Men: I think of if you think of someone who’s won a race, it’s pride, right?

Dr. John Schinnerer, Counselor for Men: The chin is up, shoulders are back, arms are up, there’s an expansiveness in that chest, right? Yes. One of the things I’ll teach people is just be aware of your [00:43:00] shoulders. Because every negative emotion, fear, anger, sadness, the shoulders roll forward slightly. If you think of a boxer who’s protecting themselves, the shoulders are rolled forward.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Counselor for Men: very much. And it’s a self protective posture. Whereas if you’re proud, your shoulders are rolled back. Ah, your shoulders are rolled back. And so if you think of just pulling your shoulders back slightly, I think there’s a physiological 

Hilary Jacobs-Handel: Yeah, absolutely. You can move your body to affect your emotions. You can move your, particularly your facial muscles and affect emotions.

Hilary Jacobs-Handel: Eye contact affects emotions. So much of what’s going on between people is nonverbal communication. 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Counselor for Men: And one of the, one of the questions I’ll ask men is, so how good are you at receiving a compliment? Because we suck at receiving compliments. Yes. We get embarrassed. We’ll, Discard them. We don’t let them inside.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Counselor for Men: We get embarrassed. There’s a bunch of reasons [00:44:00] that we have for not taking compliments in, not believing them. Oh, they’re blowing smoke up my ass. They don’t really mean that. And so just, I love Rick Hansen’s exercise of taking in the good, where you consciously decide to allow a compliment in.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Counselor for Men: Believe the other person knows you well enough and that they’re being honest and sincere. You take it into your heart, breathe on it for a few seconds. And imagine that compliment seeping out of your heart into every cell of your body. Because we’re really bad at seeing our own positive qualities. And that inner critic is so loud that We don’t stop to take in these compliments.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Counselor for Men: We don’t believe 

Hilary Jacobs-Handel: them. Absolutely I’m totally with you. One of my favorite things to do is to again to teach people how to be able to embody good things about themselves. And I think those, the defense, the shrugging off compliments, the not believing it, to me, I hear those all as as defenses [00:45:00] against experiencing what is natural in us, that when we feel good about ourselves, we feel energized, this outward energy, like you said, and an exuberance, and it’s socialized away by these ideas that pride.

Hilary Jacobs-Handel: is a seven deadly sin. What is arrogance? I don’t really even understand that. To feel good about yourself, people who genuinely feel full and good about themselves have more kindness to give to other people. They’re less jealous. They’re full. So it’s really a false pride that is an arrogance that’s underneath where there’s some insecurity, some shame that’s buried there and that you’re compensating for.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Counselor for Men: And it’s funny because arrogance to me is always a label that’s put on others from the outside. So people will say you’re arrogant, you’re being arrogant. It’s not, I don’t think it’s anything that’s applied to ourselves generally. I don’t think most people say, oh, I’m arrogant unless you’re told that a lot.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Counselor for Men: But to me, arrogance, I think false pride is a good [00:46:00] definition. I think that. So I think probably the most arrogant people think that they’re great and might be a defense. It might be based on little, but they think they’re above other people. Those of us that are self confident, and that’s what I’m shooting for with my clients.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Counselor for Men: I want them to be self confident. They believe they’re great. They’ve got a lot of ability and everyone else around them. You Can have the same confidence and ability and greatness. Yeah, they don’t put themselves above others, right? Everyone’s on an equal playing field, 

Hilary Jacobs-Handel: right? Because we’re all humans and we’re all suffering and we’re all flawed And that’s nice when you can really get into that idea It doesn’t mean you like everybody that’s totally fine Every you’re still in the difference it’s interesting the difference between judgment and preference and I think of judgment as a defense as well on the change triangle because when anybody judges anything, the question that I have is if you weren’t judging, what would you be feeling?

Hilary Jacobs-Handel: What just happened? What feeling did that evoke that then you went up into a judgment? [00:47:00] 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Counselor for Men: So let me ask you another question. To what extent do you agree with the idea that, and I, I use the phrase negative emotions, although that’s a little bit of a misnomer because all emotions are there for a purpose, but Yeah.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Counselor for Men: And that’s, so that’s a judgment, but to what extent would you agree that some of the emotions, anger, fear, sadness, shame, guilt are loud and they scream at us, whereas many of the positive emotions are quiet and they whisper to us and they don’t last as long. They’re fleeting and fragile.

Hilary Jacobs-Handel: Can you give me an example of 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Counselor for Men: For example, awe. So when we feel awe looking at like half dome and Yosemite, many people, it’s quiet. It doesn’t yell at you, right? It’s subtle. Whereas if I’m angry, I know I’m angry. My anger screams at me and demands attention. Yes. Whereas if I’m happy and content, if I’m relaxed, a lot of people that are relaxed think they’re tired.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Counselor for Men: So it, these positive emotions are often [00:48:00] subtle. They’re easy to miss unless we’re trained to spot them. And to me, frequent appreciation of an awareness of positive emotions or cultivating The the situations where we experience more positive emotions is an essential foundational pillar of happiness.

Hilary Jacobs-Handel: I agree. I totally agree that we all could use the benefit of tuning into those emotions, knowing what they’re for, learning about them and learning to perceive them in ourselves and making good use of them. And yes, the all, there’s many other emotions that aren’t On the change triangle the ones that I chose to, because I wanted to simplify this for the public.

Hilary Jacobs-Handel: So something like awe, something like surprise, they’re fleeting, right? And so they don’t cause a lot of problems. They don’t really get buried. I wanted to deal with the emotions that, that caused symptoms. Yeah, no 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Counselor for Men: I agree. And I’m just getting into finer detail, yes. Because I think it’s important for us to for instance, there was a study that showed that you ask men how many [00:49:00] emotions they can name.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Counselor for Men: And it’s about eight on average women. It’s about 17, but there’s hundreds of emotions and that’s the whole part of emotional literacy. So if we are very, because of the negativity bias, we over focus on the negative so we can name more positive emotion or more negative emotions than positive ones. But if we aren’t even aware when we’re experiencing some of the positive emotions that really creates a problem for us If we’re if one of the goals is happiness 

Hilary Jacobs-Handel: Yeah, absolutely.

Hilary Jacobs-Handel: And so and that’s where a little bit of training about going into the body to notice the physical sensations it’s the body that’s going to It’s that it’s the physical sensations that we ultimately put a word on and then that becomes an emotion It’s really Affect is in the body, but I, we call it emotion because I didn’t want to do jargony.

Hilary Jacobs-Handel: And so anyone’s language that feels right, I don’t say, if someone says they they feel irritated or annoyed, I don’t correct [00:50:00] them and say, no, you’re angry because it’s their word. It’s what feels right. But there really aren’t hundreds of of of affects per se. They’re really just some basic ones that I went over.

Hilary Jacobs-Handel: And then we can put different types of language on feelings based on what feels right for us. 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Counselor for Men: When to give you an example, even with an anger, there’s, rage, there’s irritation, there’s disgust, there’s annoyance, there’s irritability, there’s contempt. So to me, a lot of these are different levels of intensity.

Hilary Jacobs-Handel: They’re on a spectrum of intensity. Yeah. That’s how I think. 

The Power of Visualization

Dr. John Schinnerer, Counselor for Men: Let’s just brainstorm and wrapping up, like what are some of the physiological cues that people could identify to note that they’re in a positive emotional state? 

Hilary Jacobs-Handel: I would say, if they, what I, so for again, people listening, if they want to do it right now, if you conjure up the happiest moment in your life and slow way down and scan your body from head to toe at a snail’s [00:51:00] pace.

Hilary Jacobs-Handel: What do you begin to notice? And the body takes much longer than our thoughts to appear. You really have to hover. But for me, when I feel happy, I feel warm in my chest, I feel some lightness and some energy. I can have sort of an image of the sun radiating because when we’re in the realm of right brain of emotions, images, metaphors, sensations.

Hilary Jacobs-Handel: These are all part of our right brain experience versus the logic and language of the left brain. And what we’re really trying to do is put language from our left brain onto these experiences that have no words, unless we struggle to put words on them. And that’s We’re bringing those two things together, and that’s what’s calming.

Hilary Jacobs-Handel: When we can name what emotions we are [00:52:00] experiencing, the whole nervous system calms down. And that’s why these words are so important, to be able to label it. For me, that’s what but brings up joy when I feel proud of myself. And I’m going to share this cause it’s interesting. When I started to have success with the writing, like when the New York times article, which I recommend people read it’s so universal and it went viral.

Hilary Jacobs-Handel: It’s called, it’s not always depression. Sometimes it’s shame. And it was about, it’s about, Someone who came in depressed and couldn’t get treated, and then we worked in this way that I’m talking about, and they got well. And, but when that when, I never thought I’d be published in the New York Times.

Hilary Jacobs-Handel: So when that happened, and then when, during the day, it reached the number one emailed article. All of a sudden I started to feel sick. I was so dysregulated. And I was like, what’s going on here? This is such a good thing. And then I realized I was so excited and so happy that the [00:53:00] energy and the exuberance really was getting stuck in the confines of my body.

Hilary Jacobs-Handel: And what I needed to do, and I pulled what would I do if I was in therapy with myself or with one of my colleagues, is I let that energy come up in a fantasy. and imagined what it wanted to do. And, it wanted to jump around, and it wanted to dance, and I had all sorts of grandiose fantasies of seeing myself on a stage and everybody applauding, and it helped, My help doing that, really imagining it like it was a vivid, like it was a movie happening, transformed what was happening for me and was able to calm my nervous system and I didn’t feel ill anymore.

Hilary Jacobs-Handel: And that’s one of the ways that I help people with pride, right? Pride in the self, joy, excitement, that one of the reasons it can make us feel anxious is because There’s so much energy associated with it. And we have to learn these tricks and techniques, which I write about in the book and [00:54:00] on my website of using fantasy, because we’re basically trying to discharge energy that comes up.

Hilary Jacobs-Handel: So all of these good feelings and anger have a lot of biological energy. And again, not energy so much in the woo sense that my father would have scoffed at, but real biological energy, the way we, energy runs our heart, keeps our heart beating, it keeps us breathing, it runs everything. And emotions have a lot of energy because they make us move.

Hilary Jacobs-Handel: In fact, that’s the whole purpose of an emotion is to make us move in some direction that helps us. So that was a very long answer to your question. 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Counselor for Men: Emote means to move. 

Hilary Jacobs-Handel: Yeah, emove, I think is the the French and Latin derivation. Yeah. 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Counselor for Men: Yeah, and so when you were talking about that happy memory, my mind went to I was coaching my son’s soccer team.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Counselor for Men: He was eight. And it was the first time these kids had played under the lights at night. We ended up winning the game one, nothing hard fought game. And my son [00:55:00] ran off the field, jumped into my arms and said, dad, we did it. And it just, you were talking about warmth and light and the shoulders pulled back and expansiveness in the chest and energy.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Counselor for Men: And you’re right. It’s energizing, which is interesting because. It is the same as anger. There’s energy. Sadness and depression is not that’s the opposite. There’s an anti energy there or weakness or, tiredness, but many of these emotions have a lot of energy to them. And you’re right.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Counselor for Men: I think emotion is often the language of metaphor. And visualization and, one of the visualizations that I do is, breathe in white light through your nose, whatever you need is infused in that white light, hope, energy, peace, love, calm, and then breathe out black smoke and whatever you want to get rid of is in that black smoke, anger, stress, fear, depression, that kind of thing.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Counselor for Men: But yeah, visualization is key. I hadn’t thought about using visualization with the positive emotion, so that’s a really good tip. 

Hilary Jacobs-Handel: Yeah, and [00:56:00] it’s you’re really taking your cue literally from the physical sensation. It’s all about getting into the body. And and that is a, it is a practice. And that first time really takes a leap of faith that you’re, that one is going to be okay.

Hilary Jacobs-Handel: I have a couple of on the, on my, the change triangle YouTube channel. I have a couple of meditations. I w I don’t even know if I’d call them meditations. I really call them gentle experiments to help somebody. get into the body in a way that’s safe. Dropping into the body is one of them and grounding and breathing does that.

Hilary Jacobs-Handel: And I’m being your own good parent. These are ways that you’re working with these kinds of internal sensations and neural networks, parts of ourselves. And it’s good practice for those people that want to experiment. Again, and it’s nice you can always stop if it doesn’t feel right 

Reparenting the Inner Child

Dr. John Schinnerer, Counselor for Men: and yeah, you know You talk about re parenting that inner child and I used to think that was woo Me 

Hilary Jacobs-Handel: too 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Counselor for Men: Especially with like internal family systems.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Counselor for Men: It’s like I think we all have that kind of young child in us, [00:57:00] the teenager, and then that functional adult. And it was interesting, I had a dream recently. So in real life, when I was a kid, we went to Arizona, went with another family, went on a hike in a very steep canyon. And I was like six years old, and I thought I’d play hide and seek, and ended up losing the whole group.

Hilary Jacobs-Handel: And then 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Counselor for Men: I was like, oh I don’t know where I am, I’m lost. And I couldn’t see up and over the canyon. And I didn’t know how to get back to the place where we were staying, and I was panicked. Scary. So I was running around the canyon, I couldn’t find a way to get out. I finally scrambled up the side, through kind of cactuses.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Counselor for Men: And when I got up, I saw the house we were staying. And I just went to the house, didn’t tell anyone what happened, because it was 50 50 that, My mom would get mad at me, my mom might be nurturing, wasn’t worth the risk, I’ll just deal with it myself. 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Counselor for Men: And so I just buried it.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Counselor for Men: So then I had this dream recently where, same situation, I’m six years old, I scramble up the [00:58:00] side of the cliff, but my adult self is there to meet me. 

Hilary Jacobs-Handel: Yeah. And 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Counselor for Men: I just gathered my younger self in my arms and calmed him down and said, hey buddy, like it’s okay, you’re safe, you’re gonna be fine, I’m here, I got you, breathe.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Counselor for Men: That is awesome. And it was like, it was just this release. 

Hilary Jacobs-Handel: You feel it. 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Counselor for Men: It was visceral. 

Hilary Jacobs-Handel: It’s transformational. What we can do with those type of imaginal portrayals. 

Final Thoughts and Resources

Dr. John Schinnerer, Counselor for Men: I want to be respectful of your time. I’ve greatly enjoyed this conversation. What would you like to add? Where can people get a hold of you if they would like more information?

Hilary Jacobs-Handel: Yeah, what I would, what I’d like to add is just that everybody deserves. and benefits from a basic education in emotions. You don’t have to work with them. Just understand them because it’ll help you understand your boss and your colleagues and your partners and your friends and yourself.

Hilary Jacobs-Handel: And at least you will [00:59:00] understand that there’s nothing wrong with you. When you feel things that are strange or you have reactions and impulses. And if anybody wants to learn more, I have all these free resources on my website. This is some sort of a hobby, this emotion education for me, my, my bread and butter is.

Hilary Jacobs-Handel: This is my psychotherapy practice and so what I’ve tried to do is create just a place for resources. So I have a blog that if anybody wants, they can sign up for, and every month I send a new article that they’re all about emotions, relationships, trauma, and Everything related to emotional health and there’s videos there.

Hilary Jacobs-Handel: There’s other podcasts and lots of resources. And then for the whole enchilada, if you’re interested in stories, I would read or especially listen to the audio book of it’s not always depression when you’re in the car and you’ll learn a lot about yourself and the human race. It’s really, if you’re human, you need to know about emotions.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Counselor for Men: Fantastic. Thank you so much, Hilary. I really appreciate [01:00:00] your time. Again, the book is. It’s not always depression and you can get that at Amazon like everything else in the 

Hilary Jacobs-Handel: world. Yeah 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Counselor for Men: and the library and there’s an audio book 

Hilary Jacobs-Handel: exactly 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Counselor for Men: So thank you again, and that’s it for this episode of the evolved caveman.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Counselor for Men: Bye. Thanks. 

Hilary Jacobs-Handel: Take care