Navigating Core Wounds In Relationship

How To Navigate Your Core Wounds In Relationship Like An Expert Couples Counselor

What’s the best way to strengthen your connection in your romantic relationship and navigate through the complexities of your deepest core emotional wounds?

Join top couples counselors, Dr. John Schinnerer and his partner in life and love, Joree Rose, LMFT, as they uncover the essential understanding of core wounds in relationships, shedding light on how these deep-seated emotional injuries can sabotage our happiness, interactions and connections with our partners.

One of Joree’s favorite questions in couples therapy is “What is your partner’s deepest core wound?” More than half of people don’t even know the answer to this one. But how can we expect to master the complexities of romance if we aren’t the expert on ourself and our partner?

John and Joree reveal the significance of self-awareness, the power of navigating triggers with compassion and, most importantly, a cheat sheet of some of the deepest wounds they’ve seen in their combined 50 years of practice in both the anxious and the avoidant attachment styles.  They discuss the role of curiosity and compassion as fundamental tools for healing and understanding.  They uncover insights into effective communication and the importance of honoring each other’s triggers to foster a nurturing, supportive bond.

By the end of this podcast, you’ll gain a deeper understanding of yourself and your partner, what your core wounds are, how to work with them gently, thus empowering both of you to create a more resilient and loving connection. Whether you’re looking to heal old wounds or build a stronger foundation in your current relationship, these insights are invaluable. Join these top couples counselors as they explore the path to a healthier, happier partnership.

To listen to the podcast on Apple Podcasts, click here.

For those of you who prefer to read the transcript of the podcast, it is included below for your ongoing education, well-being and relational happiness.

Navigating Core Wounds in Relationship Like An Expert Couples Counselor Transcript

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: [00:00:00] Hey everybody, this is Dr. John Schinnerer, back with another episode of the Evolved Caveman Podcast. And today I am pleased to be with my partner in life and love Joree Rose. 

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: Hello everyone. So glad to be here. I love our conversations 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: and today we are continuing. Our mini series on love isn’t enough to kick off our new website.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: Love isn’t enough.net. And the topic today is core wounds. What are your core wounds as an individual that show up and make your life miserable in your romantic relationships? 

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: So I’m gonna give some context to this John. So I Love doing couples work. I find it to be a big puzzle in which we can figure out.

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: What is the Areas or barriers that are getting in the way of connection and intimacy and safety and growth. And one of the very first things I always ask couples that I’m working with [00:01:00] is, do you know what your partner’s core wounds are? 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: And people look at you and go, what? 

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: I would say about 50 percent may actually know.

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: It really is a pretty good question. It’s a difficult question because it’s actually. Many people don’t always know their own core wounds, let alone what their partner’s core wounds are. And the reason I’m so curious about this is because when we know what our partner’s core wounds are, then we can do our very best to be sensitive to what our partner gets most triggered by or is sensitive to so that we don’t activate it.

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: And yet we know we’re going to disappoint people. 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: So you mean you don’t want to get angry and attack their core insecurity? 

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: Ideally, no. 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: That 

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: is the goal, people. If you know your partner’s deepest wound or insecurity and you are intentionally attacking it, we’ve got some other work to do 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: first. I’ve been doing it all along.

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: You’ve been doing great. But I [00:02:00] guess maybe we can start with our own selves before we jump into the stuff because In our love isn’t enough model of working with couples. We really have this, if you’ve been listening to our stuff, you know what I’m going to say, this ongoing interplay of self work and relational work.

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: And we know. If we’re not doing our own individual work, it doesn’t matter how good the relational trolls you’re learning 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: trolls or tools. 

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: I was going to say tools and I don’t even know what the word was coming up. So yeah, trolls, 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: relational trolls, 

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: relation and relational tools. Maybe it’s a Monday, John, give me, cut me some slack.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: I just want to be clear for the audience. My 

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: core wound of insecurity. Can you be a little gentler with my mess up of my words, please? 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: Honey, I think you might’ve misspoken.

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: I did. It was not relationship trolled. Okay, back to the point. If we don’t know what our core wounds are likely [00:03:00] our partner doesn’t. But here’s the thing, when we know that, and we can have the self awareness to be sensitive to it, we can get through difficult moments much more gracefully, staying a little more connected than disconnected.

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: And it leads to greater healing and ultimate growth in the relationship, especially when there is a disconnection. 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: One of the things that fascinates me, I was just thinking about our core wounds, and it fascinates me the extent to which these core wounds, because I was going to say my core wounds only show up maybe 5 percent of the time or less, like they’re not that pervasive.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: They don’t show up all the time. And I think that’s true. He’s also 

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: done a lot of work on that too. Yeah, 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: But I also think that’s true for a lot of people. But then I think of people that have, a lot of insecurities about being in relationship, being betrayed, and those insecurities are more pervasive and they are going to show up far more frequently.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: And so I was just, it was just an interesting thought that it may only show up in very limited moments, or it may show up across the board, depending [00:04:00] on what that wound is. 

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: So that would be a great question of not only knowing the core wound, but to what extent do you feel it’s getting in the way of your day to day stuff?

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: Because I would say, for you, when I first met you, I think some of your core wounds were a little bit more present, more than 5 percent of the time, and then they, I’ll be gentle on how I choose to answer that, but I think, As you’ve done deeper work on yourself and we’ve done deeper work on our relationship.

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: I really only see your core wounds showing up when there’s deep trigger of activation of some kind or rumination. Rumination can get us. 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: Yeah. Yeah. So my core wounds, I would say are unworthiness, shame, and that shame being a belief that I’m unworthy of love, connection, and belonging. And they used to show up, that used to show up in when we would get into a.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: Longer disagreement 

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: right 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: and where we would get stuck 

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: and you shared that before or then it would turn to that belief of [00:05:00] I’m not good in this relationship. She’s better off without me, which we’ve also talked about how then it would lead to avoidant attachment styles and pushing me away and shutting down and thank you for doing your work around that’s gotten much better.

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: My core wounds is ultimately abandoned 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: here 

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: being alone and. And when I have that core wound to come up, I tend to want to grasp and cling tighter. So that becomes that anxious attachment style. But it’s interesting because to keep it really simplified, I often see people’s core wounds either being, I’m not enough or I’m too much.

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: Would you agree that to some extent, which 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: causes you to either pursue or retreat? 

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: And I know there’s a lot more core wounds, but I don’t want to oversimplify people’s complex lives and histories, but when we could look at it from a lens of simplicity we’re afraid we’re too much.

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: I’m too needy. I’m too emotional. I have too many requests. I want too much time. And the other side of it is I’m not good [00:06:00] enough. 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: Yeah. 

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: I’m unworthy. 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: And one of the reasons I wanted to do this conversation with you is to go through some of the possible or wounds to give people something of a beginning menu to look at what might my core wounds be.

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: Yeah. And I want to give some context a second back to doing couples therapy. And the reason I asked this question is because I think people are often getting triggered by their core wounds more than they even realize. And here’s the reason if you’re not aware of it and don’t have the ability for self awareness, self reflection and agency over naming and owning where you’re stuck, it’s going to come out looking like what?

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: You’re going to externalize. See, 

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: I love talking with you because you can just fill in the blanks and it’s all your 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: fault. If you would just stop seeing being so needy, I wouldn’t be so angry if you would just stop being such a bitch. I wouldn’t be so pissed off if you would just stop being such an asshole.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: I wouldn’t be so bad, 

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: right? So in absence of that awareness, we’re [00:07:00] externalizing blame. We’re projecting. We’re not taking ownership and accountability for what I’m actually feeling. And now, the issue isn’t about the real issue. 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: It creates 

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: a whole new set of issues. And 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: that is, you hear this line in counseling a lot anger’s only a secondary emotion, which I don’t buy into.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: I think anger can be a primary emotion. But, in these instances, I think anger is a secondary emotion, where anger’s often following on the heels of insecurity or hurt. But it happens, and it’s so fast. It’s a third of a second, 

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: and 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: so we don’t even realize that there’s an emotion underneath our anger that would be far better to speak to than anger, 

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: and that would require, again, self awareness to know what you’re feeling ability to self regulate your nervous system to calm yourself down so you can speak effectively, and these are tools that We can learn.

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: These are possible. They’re just not always easy, especially in the heat of the moment, which goes back to some of the things that we’ve said [00:08:00] from the Gottman’s work that when you’re disconnected, when you’re in an argument, when you’re fighting, you only have one goal. Regulate. 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: It also makes me think of that tool that you and I have talked a lot about that kind of positive upward virtuous spiral of revisiting disagreements that we’ve had.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: When we’re calm. Yes. When we can be curious, when we can be less judgmental and talk going after these things with curiosity, primarily in ourselves, 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: Like for me gee why did I get angry when Jory came home from Ecuador? That doesn’t really make any sense. 

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: That curiosity is huge.

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: Like what 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: might be going on there for me that has nothing to do with this relationship and 

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: Jory, 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: but maybe had to do with my prior relationship and more likely had to do with my childhood. 

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: Cause it’s that childhood and where our brain gets wired for understanding love and relationships and then see things through that lens.

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: And 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: then once we’d start to uncover some of that and be like, Oh yeah, my parents used to leave me somewhat frequently and they would go away for long trips and leave us with babysitters. And that was yeah. Yeah. Semi traumatic for me because of [00:09:00] incidents that happened. And once I can bring that to the surface, it gives me more understanding for myself, my own triggers, but it also gives you more understanding and compassion from my triggers.

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: And then greater ability to resolve it more relationally. So before we jump in, given what you just said, that ability to revisit, can you describe your own journey on what that’s been for you? Because I think this is it’s always so helpful to remind couples because you used to get really annoyed.

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: When I would bring something back up. 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: Oh, it was awful. 

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: All I was trying to like, I came from the mindset of, look, I don’t care if we’re disconnected. I care. Of course. I don’t mind if we get disconnected or into an argument, as long as we learn something from it and we can grow from it, like it’s going to happen.

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: So at least let’s make it useful for our relationship. 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: When I think in the beginning of our relationship, we would get in a disagreement. We would get it to. A resolution, or I thought it was resolved. And then, a day, [00:10:00] two, three days later, we’d be on a walk and you’d be like, Hey, can we go back and talk about that argument that we had a few days ago because I’m not really feeling 100 percent resolved.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: And. When that first came up, it was like the eye roll internally was like, Oh shit, like we got to talk about this again, 

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: just internal love. No, I said the 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: eye roll. And then the response was external. That was completely.

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: But sometimes you would say, ah, shit, do we, I thought we were done with this. 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: No, because I didn’t want to go into another uncomfortable conversation 

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: when you likely didn’t want to get re triggered and you didn’t want to have to go down that spiral.

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: And so

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: I was, I think I was afraid of getting, having that emotion come back up. 

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: And so you were self protecting. If we look at what was 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: happening. You and us. Me, you and us. And, but over time I realized that. No, this is actually a really good tool 

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: strategy to 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: go back and revisit these talks.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: And one of the things we learned from Charlie Bloom, which I think was brilliant, if one of us isn’t [00:11:00] complete 

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: in a disagreement, 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: then the relationship isn’t complete. Neither one of us is complete. We can’t get complete. We can’t get to true resolution until we’re both resolved. So if one of us is having emotions that keep coming up about her thoughts that keep coming up about it, then it’s important to go back and.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: Take another look at it. 

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: Which requires grace from the other partner to say, wow, I’m, I see you’re still feeling stuck. And I’m happy to keep working through this. It may not be easy may not be fun, but I understand that. 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: Yeah, there’s something 

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: to learn here and I think let’s get there, 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: pulling back your perspective and knowing that this is the best strategy for dealing with these.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: Long term or difficult conversations or issues because I’ve really seen it’s made a huge difference for us over the long haul where we’ve actually come to resolution on a number of issues [00:12:00] where we can finally put them to bed and just put them in the past. 

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: And to be honest, That may have taken two, three, four times 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: or more.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: I don’t even know, 

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: But the further distance you get from the triggered conversation, the greater ability you’re going to have to get to that point of resolution, because your nervous system won’t be as activated. Going back to what I asked new couples is what is your.

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: Partners core wound, and if they’re not really sure of that, what does that even mean? Then it’s another way of saying, okay, where do you have your deepest insecurities or trick, insecurities or wounds or pain points. 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: Yeah. It’s also kind of drama where you get triggered and that even takes some work too.

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: Sure. Because again, externalizing I don’t get triggered. I just don’t like being a bitch. I don’t get triggered. I just don’t like it when he’s angry. 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: What? I always assume the positive intentions with my partner. 

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: Yeah. And then we see [00:13:00] that, it gets externalized, let it 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: unhappen. 

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: And that’s common.

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: And look, you guys, none of this is going to be a one and done. This is really an opportunity for exploration into yourself so that you are more present and available with your partner. 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: And I think a big piece of this is practicing radical accountability for one’s own shit. 

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: Yeah. 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: If it’s my anger.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: It’s my issue. 

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: We also love that phrase. I think it’s a Terry real comment that if it’s hysterical, it’s historical. So the more activated you get, the longer it’s likely been stuck inside of you. 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: The more likely it is to go away in your past. 

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: But I do want to say, part of what this looks like in practice is one of the things I absolutely love most about you, John.

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: Is how deeply you feel. And at times it can be frustrating because it can make you highly sensitive. And 95 percent of the time, I think that’s one of your greatest strengths. That makes you a great partner, a great father, and allows you to do your [00:14:00] work so effectively with clients. And, but my point in saying this is.

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: I also know that when it’s at strength, it can also be deeply activated, but it’s also my accountability, my own agency around how to best communicate with you about that. Like my ex, for example, wasn’t as highly sensitive or if he wasn’t in ways that didn’t show up in the ways that you might feel that.

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: So I had to learn. If I want to be able to be heard or get a need met or have a request, it was up to me to communicate to you in the best possible way you could hear it. Showing up bluntly and stating it was never going to be the way for you to be able to receive any feedback or a request. So knowing his core one of sensitivity and worthiness gave me information of how to best communicate to you.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: And it’s interesting because that sensitivity and self [00:15:00] worth was also tied into my deep emotional sensitivity. 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: Because to me, when I couldn’t manage my emotions in those moments, I was like, screw it. I shouldn’t be in a relationship.

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: So that’s an example of how I would attend to your core wound or deepest insecurity or sensitivity.

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: What would be one that you would shift knowing what mine was? 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: I think knowing that It’s abandonment and insecurity over abandonment. I try to over communicate with you. . I try to let you know when I’m leaving, when I’m home, I try to let you know where I’m at and that’s all of my choosing.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: It’s not, you’re not on, you’re not on a tight, it’s not it’s something I do because I love you and I want you to feel secure. 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: . 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: And so I intentionally over communicate with you. To let you know we’re connected and things are good to put you at ease. 

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: And sometimes that can come up as a challenge and we’ve seen when we’ve gotten into arguments where you’ve [00:16:00] needed space to regulate and I seek a connection to regulate.

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: And when you’ve needed space, I’ve had to learn really hard to not over personalize your need for space because it does trigger. My abandonment wound. And that’s a great opportunity for me to practice my own tools on taking care of myself, which comes back to that constant interplay of self work and relational work and.

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: I remember years ago we got super cheesy and instead of the line from Jerry Maguire of I complete you, which we know screwed up a lot of relationships of feeling incomplete without a partner. A way of saying I love you was I co regulate you. This is like two therapists in love having, cycle babble of expression of love, but at times we can’t co regulate each other.

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: That doesn’t mean I don’t love you, it just means But that’s the goal, is to 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: help each other co regulate. Or to co regulate one another. 

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: And also know when your partner’s not available and not personalize that. 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: And then the self worth comes into [00:17:00] play, right? The self soothing I’m okay, he still loves me, he’s not going anywhere, take a deep breath.

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: And we also know from research for those who do need alone time to regulate, to let their partners know the timeframe in which they will return. 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: Yeah. 

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: Hey, love, I need some time. I’ll be back in 20 minutes or I’ll be back in an hour. The Gottman’s research says minimum 20 minutes, cause that’s what we need to regulate our nervous system.

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: Maximum 24 hours and stay connected if you can during that time. So let’s go into some of these idea of people’s core wounds. Okay. Thanks. 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: Okay, 

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: to give others because my hope is that for people listening to this, they really can get curious about themselves if they haven’t already. And then bring that to their partner.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: Yeah. So let me do the one. So these are, these basically are mapped onto attachment styles. And since, secure attachment style would have few, if any of these core wounds, but I think it’s still possible, this is basically anxious and avoidant attachment style. So since. I was more avoidant. Let me do the avoidance and you can do the [00:18:00] anxious.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: So some of the common vulnerabilities for avoidant personalities or avoidant attachment styles are feeling intruded upon. So if you get annoyed, when your partner comes in, you’re working at home on the computer and they ask you a question. And you’re like, why are you always interrupting me? Or can’t you see I’m in the middle of something can be a vulnerability.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: I’m feeling trapped or out of control. 

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: Can I go back to the feeling and treat it? How do we know what’s going to trigger a wound there? Or when I actually need you on time and space for someone who has a trigger there, but I don’t want to interrupt you, but yet. I need something. How would that work?

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: I think number one, you don’t come in loud. Okay. You come in gentle. 

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: Okay. 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: Quiet, quietly. 

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: The soft and startup semi approach. 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: Yeah. And I think, to me, it’s like, Hey honey, can I talk to you when you’re, when you have a break? 

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: Okay. Can you let me know when you’re available? 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: Yeah. [00:19:00] Because there’s something about attention where I can go deep into what I’m doing.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: Ideally, I don’t do this quite as much as I used to. Because I can’t see for that long, but that’s a whole nother thing.

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: If you’re reading or working. 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: If I’m writing something, I can go way into that, and I can go into that for a couple hours. And I like being there. And to pull myself out of that takes effort and energy.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: And then to refocus on whoever’s interrupting. I remember having, when my kids were small, this used to drive me nuts. Because it took a tremendous amount of energy to pull out and focus on them, and then get back to where I was. Takes a lot of effort and attention 

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: too. 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: And I just, it annoyed me. So I think, again, part of this is gentle communication, part of it’s volume. And part of it for me, my, like my work in this is reminding myself that there’s no foul being committed here. They’re just trying to get my attention. This isn’t personal. It’s not, and I’ve had to work on this over the years that, it used to annoy me much more.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: Now I’m pretty good about it. 

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: I think it comes back to that interesting [00:20:00] idea of feeling, positive intent, assuming positive intent. If I assume someone doesn’t respect me. Then any intrusion on time or space might feel like a greater offense. 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: And I think this is a great example of that interplay between self and relational work, right?

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: Like, how do I communicate with my partner in a way that’s going to best be heard? And then as the receiver of that, how do I work within myself to make sure that I’m receiving my partner’s communication in a way that doesn’t hurt their feelings or drive them away.

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: And I call that the reciprocity of needs, right?

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: If I can meet your needs, I’ll have a much likelihood of getting my needs met in return. But I want to just not, I want to give like real tangible examples for each of these. So I didn’t mean to interrupt. Yeah, that’s okay. Okay. 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: So the next one is feeling trapped. And you could also say feeling out of control, but I, at times will get that feeling of claustrophobia.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: Yeah. Emotional claustrophobia. It could be actual claustrophobia, like sitting in a MRI with my shoulders pinned in a small tube, I don’t like that at all. But then I can also How about a 

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: small elevator in Italy in a 200 year old building? 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: No, I’m okay with that. [00:21:00] 

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: We had a bad experience. That’s more her issue.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: I’m 

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: feeling trapped. 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: But I think it extends to emotional and relational claustrophobia. And even we’ve had Conversations about me leaving your house where that has a claustrophobic feeling to me like I just want to say goodbye and leave and you get sad and a little bit anxious when I do leave and you like to drag it out.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: And so there’s competing. Like a 

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: couple of goodbyes. 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: Yeah. But and there’s no wrong there. And you want to be aware of where those needs are in competition so that you can talk about it and know where your partner is coming from. 

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: I know one of the areas this has come up for you a couple of times, and I think it just was by happenstance in which we’ve had conversations in the car.

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: And that has caused you to feel very much trapped, that you had no escape, that you couldn’t 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: make your space. Part of that goes back to adolescence and some experiences I had there too. So there’s a double hiss. So 

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: again, without that [00:22:00] knowledge, I could easily over Personalize that, or judge you for it, or get mad at you for it, or dismiss it.

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: What the fuck is wrong? What’s the big deal here? And I remember a couple months ago, we had a conversation in a car that was difficult. And I ended up pulling over to give myself in a moment to regulate. And you assumed I was there to trap you. And I had to reassure you. It felt like I was 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: being trapped.

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: And that was your old story. That wasn’t what was occurring. I just was taking time to regulate while driving and this is where being able to communicate that effectively could, that could have spiraled into a big fight and it really wasn’t. We were just both having an internal trigger around it.

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: And 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: we see this a lot in couples where they’ll have a disagreement in a car and one of the two will feel trapped and want to get out of the car, stop the car, like I’m out like, and they’ll like on the freeway, I don’t think that’s a good idea. 

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: In the opening scene of Crazy, Stupid, Love, Steve Carell just rolls out of the moving car.

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: So he felt [00:23:00] really bad. So 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: there must be some truth there, right? Yeah. 

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: Okay, move on.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: Alright, so the third of four for avoidant attachment styles is Not a 

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: sleepless, is your starter. No, the, 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: yeah, and so the next one is fear of too much intimacy. And I think this one fascinates me because when you fall in love with someone, you open your heart to them.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: You open your past, you expose your insecurities, you suppose your weaknesses, expose your vulnerabilities. And. It’s amazing. And simultaneously, it’s terrifying because basically what you’re doing is you’re gift wrapping your heart and handing it to this person and saying, please treat this gently. And then you have to trust that’s the case, but then inevitably you’re going to get into disagreements where that heart is going to get hurt.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: That’s just how it works. And so I think, to go back to assuming positive intent. Working through these disagreements multiple times to come to completion, I think working on forgiveness of your partner in those situations [00:24:00] repeatedly is a good idea as well. 

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: Compassion for the other.

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: I see the fear of too much intimacy. And again, this is being grouped from what would be named as an avoidant attachment style. So you got to have understanding that this was likely from early on in childhood, in which the primary caregiver will get. Primary caregiver was physically or emotionally not present.

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: And so that child’s brain gets wired in a sense of I must not be lovable enough. I can’t trust others. I’m going to take care of myself before, I over rely on someone else because they may not be there and they may let me down. So I’ll push someone away before they have a chance to hurt me. So it’s very self protective.

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: And the more self protective we are, The less connected we can be in an intimate relationship. This fear of too much intimacy, if I’m going to generalize, sorry everyone, I see more men have that fear, but we also know that’s how they’ve been socialized. So we’ve got to look at this from so many different [00:25:00] angles.

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: If men have been socialized to be autonomous. And women are socialized to be more relational and women are just trying to stay connected. The men can be like, lady, give me some space. Stop 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: trying to control me. Yeah. And then the fourth and final one for avoidance is the fear of being blamed. And, I we’ll put this in the same category as I don’t like to do something.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: I don’t like to do things wrong. And I fucking hate to disappoint you or hurt you. And so when I have done something wrong and I have hurt you. That is really difficult for 

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: me. 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: And that’s where I think was the most likely entree into shame. And that was a big aha for us as well, I think, because, if that’s the case with your partner, then, they’re doing everything they can pretty much not to disappoint you, not to hurt your feelings.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: And yet it’s still, it’s inevitable and it’s going to happen. 

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: And part of the grace around that is recognizing sometimes what felt hurtful [00:26:00] to me was taking care of your own self. So without insight into those core wounds of what you were working through look, everyone’s needs can’t be met all the time.

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: And so again, I keep coming back to this word of grace. Let’s just have some spaciousness. And some compassion that it’s a fucking miracle any relationship works. We are feeling beings who don’t always think clearly, who have a myriad of wounds and traumas. And for any of you, especially men listening who don’t believe you have traumas.

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: You’re not looking at yourself with the lens through understanding how experiences have impacted you. 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: And again, I like Faith Harper’s definition of trauma is anything that disconnects us from a feeling of safety and growing up in the Manbox culture. We got that shit all the time. That was just, that’s daily existence for us.

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: John, no. 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: And so it’s an accumulation of small t little t traumas, I would say generally, but they’re still there. They [00:27:00] accumulate. 

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: I know you know this, and especially you see this when we do couple’s work together, in which I will hear the woman or the wife in a relationship say, oh my gosh, my husband has.

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: So many traumas, he’s not willing to address or to look at. And then I’ll say, Hey, John, go talk to him about, what his traumas are. And he’s I don’t have any fun. I don’t, what do you mean? I don’t have any trauma. So we can see how this really interferes again with connection and intimacy and vulnerability and growth.

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: So let’s move on. And just some common vulnerabilities of what might be the anxious attachment. And it was funny as we read, some of these lists together. I’m like, oh, fuck, this is you and I to a tee. Damn. The good news is you guys, secure attachments are possible. So just because you might have had a pattern or a history of anxious or avoidant does not mean you’re stuck there.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: And that’s the goal is to create a secure attachment style with the right partner by going after. Some of these insecurities or all of them and [00:28:00] vulnerabilities 

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: and let’s again get vulnerable for a second. We’ve been together eight and a half years. 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: We haven’t been vulnerable already. 

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: No, we’re getting more vulnerable in eight and a half years.

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: I would say that old anxious avoidant attachment was present for at least seven of Yeah. Seven and a half of those years. Yeah. I would say in the past year, which really post breakup and doing deep dive into self healing, have we been able to develop a secure attachment and what percentage would you say you feel secure with me?

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: 99. 5. 

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: Yeah. Me too. Those triggers are really small. So let us be evidence of when you do the healing, I don’t want to call it work. I hate the word relationship work, even though it is work, it just has a negative feel of dredging. 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: Yeah. 

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: It’s curiosity. Yeah. It’s relational. Investment. Investments grow.

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: Okay. New word. Okay. So for the person in the relationship who has a tendency towards anxious attachment, one of the triggers is deeply rooted in fear of being [00:29:00] abandoned. And this can be by simple not acknowledging bids for attention. So it can be very slight bits of feeling dismissed versus not feeling as important.

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: So it a conceptual, you don’t take me into consideration versus like actual leaving me. 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: Not being listened to. Yeah, taking a time out during a fight can trigger it 

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: being broken up with.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: That kind of is abandonment. 

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: And that was a really tricky one, right? When we say that, you try your best not to activate your partner’s deepest wounds or insecurities.

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: That was one of my biggest challenges during our short breakup was like, Was that the only route you could go, John? And, did you have to break up with me? Cause that deeply activated my core wound of abandonment. And we’ve done a lot of work of healing around that. And I was necessary. We had, we needed that breakup and the healing around that.

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: Has been strong. But this, can really get in the way of of connection. And I 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: think it’s [00:30:00] important to point out the abandonment can be real or perceived doesn’t have to be actual. 

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: So this kind of is similar, but fear of being separated from your partner. And I would say, that wound stems from inability or not having developed the tools to feel independent or confident.

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: over relying on someone to make decisions or, it’s interesting. I once read a study when I was pregnant with my oldest daughter of ways to prevent teenagers from succumbing to peer pressure. And it was all about giving your kids choices growing up and that those who weren’t given choices, who just did what their parents told them to do, were more likely to succumb to peer pressure because they never developed critical thinking.

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: To make a decision on their own. And I think 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: what’s not just critical thinking, it’s sense of identity. It’s assertiveness. What are 

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: my values? How do I make a decision? There’s 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: a lot of tight up in it. 

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: So when you have more of that confidence and you have that skill [00:31:00] set, then you won’t be as anxious around a partner because I’m okay.

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: I’m still whole when we’re not together. I guess was what I was trying to say. That was a long way. It’s all stemmed from that fear of abandonment, but discomfort at being alone for too long. And when we learn to lean into discomfort to understand what am I really uncomfortable with?

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: Maybe I don’t know what to do with my time. Maybe I don’t know what, if I like hanging out with myself. So I think that’s opportunity for some really great self exploration. 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: And if you don’t do that work, you’re going to be, you’re going to feel abandoned more often because your partner is going to be annoyed at having to be around you too much of the time.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: And they’re going to want their own space 

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: and needing space or desiring connection is different than needing space. Both are healthy. And this is one that I see a really big piece that kind of is different than the ones above. And I see a lot [00:32:00] of women experience this of not wanting to be a burden, 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: but they 

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: feel like they are being a burden, right?

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: That idea of I’m needy. Oh, I fucking hate that phrase, high 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: maintenance, 

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: you’re, feeling that they’re needy.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: And I just want to say on that point, I think if you’re in the right relationship, You are not high maintenance or needy that it’s okay to have needs. Having needs does not make you needy.

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: I 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: think most men aren’t even aware of what their needs are or that they can ask for their needs to be met. So when anyone comes at them with needs, they’re like subconsciously, like my needs aren’t getting met. Why should yours? 

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: I think most of them know exactly what their needs are, what needs are not being met.

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: I think that’s opposite. I remember when we first met, we just talked about this yesterday, actually early on it might’ve been the first few weeks. I remember exactly. We were sitting at my kitchen counter and I turned to you, I said, Hey, just so you know what you’re getting into here, apparently I’m really needy.

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: And you looked at me, you’re like, [00:33:00] what you’re not needy. And it was like this aha moment went off of, Oh, he doesn’t perceive me as needy because most of our needs aligned. And I see often in relationships, a disconnect around alignment of needs. So one who has a greater set of emotional needs paired with someone who has less desire for emotional intimacy, it might feel like, wow, you’re really needy.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: I think on top of our needs aligning, you matter to me. So I try and meet your 

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: needs. Thank you, baby. But yeah, that’s a big piece, but if I’m if it’s annoying to you, it’s going to be harder for you to meet them. 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: And also, that’s that enlightened self interest, right? If I meet your needs.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: you’re more likely to meet my needs and we both win. Yeah. The other thing I want to say about feeling like a burden, feeling like a burden in general is really dangerous. We know with people with suicidal ideation, that feeling like a burden is a short bridge to [00:34:00] suicidal attempt. And so you want to be careful and you want to challenge that thought of I’m a burden because It shouldn’t be true.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: I wanna say it’s not true, but some people might make you feel like you’re a burden. If that’s the case you might consider if you’re in the right relationship. 

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: I think one of the antidotes to feeling like a burden in relationship is to ensure reciprocity. 

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: . 

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: I think the, it feels like a burden when it’s too one-sided.

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: . 

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: And. Which is tricky because let’s say the woman feels like a burden and the man doesn’t think he has any needs. It’s going to inherently feel imbalanced. So let’s all acknowledge that we all have needs. And the key here is to uncover with curiosity and compassion, what they are, and then be able to communicate them to our partners so that we can honor them without stepping on triggers in the meantime.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: All right. I think that was a great conversation. I 

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: think it was a great conversation. And I’m hoping that this gives you some insight and indication into where [00:35:00] you might be stuck, where you might be feeling there’s barriers in your relationship from feeling more honest. Cause here’s the other way it shows up.

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: I know I don’t want to speak up because now everything feels like a landmine 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: and then you sweep everything under the rug and then the resentment just accumulates until it becomes poison. 

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: And then we know couples wait far too long to receive support and now they’re resigned and don’t feel like they’re even available for learning new tools because it’s been so well established.

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: So if this is, giving you some huh moments and you’re like, ah, shit, what do I do next? Good news is John and I have our love isn’t enough year long masterclass series, which no point in the year or what you sign up, you can always get access to previous recordings and be available for the live upcoming recordings.

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: You can look at. Love isn’t enough. net 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: for 

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: that information. And we are also launching into relationship coaching. So if this has given you some indication of where [00:36:00] you might need some relational support you can check out our website as well for that. We’d love to help support you on your journey because we know doing this relationship investment, look at that.

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: I remembered the word I use not work. It pays off. It does. Big time. 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: Yeah. 

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: I know, I never thought a relationship could be this deep and this fulfilling. 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: And we also know if your relationship isn’t humming along smoothly, neither is the rest of your life. 

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: Yeah. 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: It’s one of the foundational pillars of a happy, thriving life.

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: Thanks for this conversation. 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: You are most welcome. Thank you for inviting me. 

Joree Rose, Couples Counselor: Thank you for investing so much in our relationship. I appreciate it. And thank 

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: you for your growth as well. Thank you. And that is it for this episode of the Evolved Caveman podcast. Thank you so much for your time and attention.

Dr. John Schinnerer, Couples Counselor: If you like this, please be sure to rate, review, and share. It’s how we grow the podcast and get new listeners. If you didn’t like it, you don’t have to do a damn thing. Thanks so much. Until next time.